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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117982
08/22/09 10:57 PM
08/22/09 10:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
OK, but what I see in these stories (and others I've read) is that the people being abused had no way to prevent the abuse (an old woman x a police officer, one man x several individuals). The same was true of Christ (humanly speaking), who probably had His hands tied and was being guarded by the Temple police. So they were unable to prevent the abuse, but though abused they didn't show any anger or resort to retaliation. However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #117991
08/23/09 01:43 AM
08/23/09 01:43 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: teresaq
M: I tend to think turning the other cheek means to keep our eyes on Jesus when someone is being abusive. However, I do not think it means to hand over my daughter after the bad guy is done raping my wife.

t: i find it intriguing that almost immediately the topic turned to protecting ourself instead of studying Christs meekness. i would think we already had self and self-preservation down to an artform.

M: I don't understand your comment. Are you surprised someone would observe on this thread that turning the other cheek means keeping our eyes on Jesus?

In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?

t: we are told that Jesus life here on earth is our example so studying His life, i would think, would cover all the bases. i mean, that His life would show what turning the other cheek is and is not. would you agree or disagree?

Why would you limit it to Jesus' life here on earth? Ellen White taught that we should study Jesus' example in both the OT and the NT. She wrote, "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}

Also, I don't understand how your comments and question address the two questions I asked you. Here they are again:

1. I don't understand your comment. Are you surprised someone would observe on this thread that turning the other cheek means keeping our eyes on Jesus?

2. In what sense do you think refusing to offer my daughter to be raped after the bad guy is done raping my wife is an art form of self and self-preservation?

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #117992
08/23/09 01:50 AM
08/23/09 01:50 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?

Absolutely. I was a special forces sergeant in the US Air Force, and we were taught how to "diffuse, deescalate, and disarm enemy combatants". It usually worked wonderfully well. However, I understand it doesn't work at all on Jihadists. Apparently their zealous desires rob them of normal human values.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118036
08/23/09 05:28 PM
08/23/09 05:28 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
OK, but what I see in these stories (and others I've read) is that the people being abused had no way to prevent the abuse (an old woman x a police officer, one man x several individuals). The same was true of Christ (humanly speaking), who probably had His hands tied and was being guarded by the Temple police. So they were unable to prevent the abuse, but though abused they didn't show any anger or resort to retaliation. However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested. there are many stories like his, also.

but you all are sure making me feel good. laugh i thought i was the only one looking for "loopholes"


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Mountain Man] #118038
08/23/09 05:40 PM
08/23/09 05:40 PM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man

Why would you limit it to Jesus' life here on earth? Ellen White taught that we should study Jesus' example in both the OT and the NT. She wrote, "All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in [1] His Word and in [2] the life of His Son, the great Teacher." {6BC 1079.9}



Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Mar 14:49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118060
08/24/09 12:41 AM
08/24/09 12:41 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested.

What would be the motivation of the man for calling the police? Wouldn't he do it because he was angry, or as a kind of retaliation?
In case he didn't call the police, nor had any kind of reaction, but after the individuals had left he cherished anger, would heaven consider him meek?
In case it was just one individual attacking him, and he tried to prevent him from doing that by holding him, talking to him and seeking to calm him down, wouldn't heaven consider him meek?
I think the key is your inner attitude, what is in your heart. And in some way the aggressor can sense it.

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: Rosangela] #118068
08/24/09 03:02 AM
08/24/09 03:02 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested.

What would be the motivation of the man for calling the police? Wouldn't he do it because he was angry, or as a kind of retaliation?
In case he didn't call the police, nor had any kind of reaction, but after the individuals had left he cherished anger, would heaven consider him meek?
In case it was just one individual attacking him, and he tried to prevent him from doing that by holding him, talking to him and seeking to calm him down, wouldn't heaven consider him meek?
I think the key is your inner attitude, what is in your heart. And in some way the aggressor can sense it.

my original post to which you replied above is below. you said the man was not able to do anything about his tormenters like the other examples given. i was pointing out that in his case he could call the police.
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
OK, but what I see in these stories (and others I've read) is that the people being abused had no way to prevent the abuse (an old woman x a police officer, one man x several individuals). The same was true of Christ (humanly speaking), who probably had His hands tied and was being guarded by the Temple police. So they were unable to prevent the abuse, but though abused they didn't show any anger or resort to retaliation. However, in case you can hold the hand that attempts to hit you, and try to calm down the person, don't you think this should be done?
the "one man x several individuals" could have called the police and had them arrested. there are many stories like his, also.


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118096
08/24/09 04:50 PM
08/24/09 04:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Yes, but what I was trying to point out is that, IMO, suffering the abuse without responding to it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is meek, and trying to prevent the other person from abusing doesn't mean that the person isn't meek. Is that explanation clearer or have I just made the waters muddier? smile

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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118124
08/25/09 03:16 AM
08/25/09 03:16 AM
teresaq  Offline OP
SDA
Active Member 2024

Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,984
CA, USA
But there were some who sought his society,
feeling at peace in his presence,

because he never contended for his rights.

Tho he loved his brethren,
yet they hated him,
and manifested the most decided unbelief and contempt.

In his home life,
where all should have been at peace,
he was constantly confronted by envy and jealousy.

His labors were made unnecessarily severe
because he was willing and uncomplaining.

He did not fail nor become discouraged.

He lived above these difficulties,
as if in the light of God's countenance.

He did not retaliate when he was roughly used,

but bore insult patiently,

and in his human nature became an example
for all children and youth.

He endured the heat and the cold, the sun and the rain, of his native hills and valleys. {ST, August 6, 1896 par. 8}


Psa 64:5 ...an evil matter: they commune of laying snares privily; they say, Who shall see them?

Psa 7:14 Behold, he travaileth with iniquity, and hath conceived mischief, and brought forth falsehood. 15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made. 16 His mischief (and his violent dealing) shall return upon his own head.

Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD most high.
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Re: Was Jesus Weak for Turning the Other Cheek? [Re: teresaq] #118127
08/25/09 12:34 PM
08/25/09 12:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
What I understand meekness to be in relation to Christ's life. At all times we must be polite to others and never should have a spirit of anger or retaliation, even when our rights are violated. However, there are occasions when surrendering our rights or failing to point out abuse would only encourage a spirit of injustice in others. In this case you wouldn't be helping, but doing damage to, the person involved. That's why Jesus didn't keep silent in His trial. I think the Holy Spirit will guide us as to the correct behavior to pursue in each individual case.
An example taken from Ellen White's life:

"The very same thing you complain of in C. H. Jones, in reference to your book, was carried out in reference to 'Great Controversy' and 'Patriarchs and Prophets'. The Pacific Press violated their solemn promise to me that if I would take ten cents royalty, they would give wide sale to the book. They would have reduced the royalty still more, but warnings were given me that I was encouraging a spirit of injustice, and that it was my duty to guard not only my individual rights, but the rights of others. I was to take my stand firmly, and not to be swayed by men, however high their position, for their business transactions were not all directed by the Spirit of God. The Lord will vindicate only the truth, and all who practice injustice and double dealing God will judge." {1888 1382.1}


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