that was beautiful.

we need to dwell on that more and more til we become truly Christlike.

It appears to me that you highly value God punishing sinners. That if sin itself should result in eternal death to sinners without God doing or causing anything, you would feel it is not praiseworthy of God. Is that true: Punishment is highly important for God to do?

Kland,

I think that you underestimate God's power, duties and role. God has many important duties. Punishment is not the most important, but it is important that sin be effaced from the universe, and that it be done so justly.

God has said "vengeance is mine." That means He will be taking care of things in the end, doesn't it? Do you suppose He would deceive us by telling us this and then have no vengeance?



We are told we can trust the Lord to avenge the wrongs done to us. God works His vengeance in righteousness. We must not think He does this with the same sinful motives we would have if we were the ones overseeing the judgments.



I find comfort in that God will be just. I am not happy that the wicked have chosen the way of destruction, but I am happy that they will not have the last word. I am happy that they will not be permitted to reign forever on this earth.

The following applies much, much closer to home. This is a very grave statement which she makes here, and not to be taken lightly.


Notice that Ellen White quotes the angel in her above statement.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

i understood this to be more of a question of ourselves. in other words, would we find God worthy of worship if He Himself were not going to wreak vengence on our enemies? how would we feel about God if He has other methods in mind?

again, as the pioneers pointed out, in the prophetic it speaks more of the certainty of the event happening, not to the means employed to bring it about.

Phrases sometimes take their shape from their first use. The first use of this is prophetic, Ex.iv,21, (Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.)spoken to Moses while yet in Midian, and manifestly having reference to the certainty of the event, and not to the particular kind of agency employed in producing it. {April 1, 1862 JWe, ARSH 139.20}

this is another relating of the incident stated a little differently:
Although Nabal had refused the needy company of David and his men, yet that very night he made an extravagant feast for himself and his riotous friends, and indulged in eating and drinking till he sunk in drunken stupor. The next day after the effects of his drunken debauch had somewhat passed away, his wife told him of how near he had been to death, and of how the calamity had been averted. As he listened, he realized what a course of evil would have resulted but for Abigail's discretion, and terror filled his heart. Palsied with horror, he sat down and never recovered from the shock. {21MR 214.3} when God says He returns the wickedness of the wicked back on them, that is exactly what He means. God did not kill nabal. nabal died as a result of his drunkenness, shock and fear that david would still come after him. nabals own wickedness killed him.

Psa 7:15 He made a pit, and digged it, and is fallen into the ditch which he made.

Psa 7:16 His mischief shall return upon his own head, and his violent dealing shall come down upon his own pate.

then david glorifies God:
Psa 7:17 I will praise the LORD according to his righteousness: and will sing praise to the name of the LORD
most high.

david knew sin was not some good that God was withholding from us. david knew that sin kills.

God avenges Himself by making known the truth. He keeps an account of the wrongs to show the wicked themselves in the judgment. This is, as GC 541 puts it, for their own good.

His vengeance is really weird from our perspective. We would never call it vengeance. His vengeance is doing good to those who hate Him, and blessing those who would harm Him.

The principle is brought out in Romans:



I think often the connection between these verses is not seen. In verse 20, we are acting like God does when He takes His vengeance. *God* overcomes evil with good. The character of the good which overcomes evil is to feed your enemy if he is hungry, give him drink if he is thirsty, which does what? It heaps coals of fire on his head. This is the fire that comes from heaven which destroys the wicked.

Jesus spoke of the same concept in the Sermon on the Mount. He said to turn the other cheek, to walk the second mile, to pray for those who treat you despitefully, and so forth. This is God's character. It's not something he turns on and off like a switch, but is simply the way He is.

The "strange act" in the judgment is His allowing the wicked to receive the results of their choice. The wicked have so damaged themselves that merely being in the presence of God is a consuming fire. That glory of Him who is love will destroy them. God's glory is His character. God is love. They can't stand that. God gets His vengeance by simply being Himself.

Are you saying you don't quite believe Mrs. White meant what she said? Are you saying that she should have used a different word here, or described things differently?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No, GC. I think Ellen White's comments were in harmony with what I've said, and with what Jesus Christ lived and taught.

I'm really rather confused by your questions. Don't you think it's a lot more likely that I would think you don't quite believe what Mrs. White said than that I don't?

There are tons of statements from Ellen White which lay out the principle I discussed. I've cited repeated from GC 35-37, and many others have been cited as well, by me and by others. Where you and I differ is I believe God's withdrawing His protection from the thousand unseen dangers He protects us from is fully sufficient for any punishment He would want to inflict. I don't believe there is any necessity for God to Himself cause things which would look just like the same things that would happen if He simply withdrew His protection. That leads to confusion for us, as we don't know who is who, which is important to understand at the time of the end.

That is, if we believe that both Satan and God will cause plagues, and inflict terrible pain upon their enemies, and kill them, we are in danger of:

1.Using the methods of Satan thinking we are using the methods of God.
2.Thinking that God is doing something when it's really Satan.
3.Misidentifying whether a person or persons is following God or Satan.

For you, it appears, God Himself has to actually inflict the pain, and cause the killings, or He is not being just or righteous or punishing sinners. I don't agree with this. In the Destruction of Jerusalem, God was just and righteous and punished those who rejected His Son. Indeed, we're told that never was there given a more decisive testimony of these things then the destruction of Jerusalem.

So, again, it's not the fact of the question at hand that I'm taking issue with, but the mechanism. Christ will avenge His elect, and He will do so by the methods you yourself quoted from the SOP, love, mercy and goodness. And this vengeance will be for the good of the wicked as well, as the text you quoted also brings out.

There are a number of things in your view that don't make sense to me. To name one, your view appears to me to be having Christ acting as a man who would take vengeance, as opposed to how He actually acted in taking vengeance against Jerusalem.

Excuse me for jumping in here and not reading all 18 pages. But my first thoughts on this are that yes God does allow or cause pain to happen for our good.

For instance .... when we pray for God to fill us with His Spirit and to resist the sins in our life. Only He can do this .... but He does not fully answer our plea. He allows us to have sin in our lives. And I think it is so that we will always see and feel the need for His power. If we had victory over all sins .... we would not see the need or we would forget the need for His power.

Sin is a constant reminder of our need for our Saviour.

The title of the thread is a bit misleading. It probably wouldn't be a bad idea for you to read the first couple of pages if you haven't already done so.