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Re: Blood of Christ
#11858
11/30/04 10:09 AM
11/30/04 10:09 AM
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Active Member 2011
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
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Maybe there is no answerer becourse the wrong question is asked? How would you see these quotes fit the topic? quote:
Romans 8
More Than Conquerors
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all--how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:
"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
quote:
Colossians 1
The Supremacy of Christ
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[6] your evil behavior. 22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-- 23if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
quote:
1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them--yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.
The Resurrection of the Dead
12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
29Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them? 30And as for us, why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I die every day--I mean that, brothers--just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised,
"Let us eat and drink,
for tomorrow we die." 33Do not be misled: "Bad company corrupts good character." 34Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11859
12/01/04 03:36 AM
12/01/04 03:36 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Here is what Sister White says about Satan’s accusations:
DA 761, 762
In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}
Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}
These accusations are false, of course. The law can be obeyed perfectly, but if we refuse to avail ourselves of God’s grace to live in harmony with the law, then most assuredly we will be destroyed, just like Satan said. God could not, therefore, simply forgive Adam and Eve’s transgression and give them a new nature, at least not the moment they sinned. Why? Because of the law of sin and death.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness, no probation, no new nature, no new life. Jesus had to die in their place to pay the penalty of sin before God could restore man to his former glory. Also, time was needed for Satan’s principles to play out, so God couldn’t fix things right away; otherwise He would have fixed them then and there, that is, He would have restored Adam and Eve and He would have destroyed Satan and his followers. But time, lots of time, was needed.
DA 759, 761
It was God's purpose to place things on an eternal basis of security, and in the councils of heaven it was decided that time must be given for Satan to develop the principles which were the foundation of his system of government. He had claimed that these were superior to God's principles. Time was given for the working of Satan's principles, that they might be seen by the heavenly universe. {DA 759.2}
Yet Satan was not then destroyed. The angels did not even then understand all that was involved in the great controversy. The principles at stake were to be more fully revealed. And for the sake of man, Satan's existence must be continued. Man as well as angels must see the contrast between the Prince of light and the prince of darkness. He must choose whom he will serve. {DA 761.3}
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11860
11/30/04 06:53 PM
11/30/04 06:53 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, absolutely, God is not willing that anyone should be lost. He’s not looking for excuses to kill people, but neither is He looking for excuses to save them. The truth is what sets us free. Does God have to justify forgiving us and saving us? Most certainly. Why? Because all have sinned and the wages of sin is death. In other words, according to the law of sin and death, we must die. Since God is the great life-giver, He must justify circumventing this law, otherwise He is a lawbreaker. Who is He accountable to that He must justify forgiving us and saving us? To Satan, to fallen angels, to unfallen angels and beings, to us – to the entire universe. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. quote:
He didn't need the cross in order to forgive us -- we needed the cross in order to be forgiven.
I believe this idea makes a mockery of the cross. It cheapens the blood and sacrifice of Jesus. It makes it sound as if the death of Christ was unnecessary were it not for our ignorance and immaturity. The idea that God could have made pardon and salvation available without the blood of Jesus shed on Calvary is, in my opinion, heresy. For reasons that we may never fully understand or comprehend, God cannot forgive our sins without the death of Christ.
God and God’s law (i.e., the transcript of His character) requires death for sin, and Jesus stepped in and took our place, He consumed and conquered our sin and second death on the cross, which gives Him the legal right to forgive us and to save us, and to transfer our sin and second upon Satan, who will perish with them in the lake of fire. Death is the only way to eradicate sin. No sinners, no sin. However, the plan of salvation makes Jesus the lawful owner of our sin and second death. No more sin, no more sinners. The sins of the saved will perish with Satan in the lake of fire. No more sin, no more death.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11861
11/30/04 07:04 PM
11/30/04 07:04 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"God could not, therefore, simply forgive Adam and Eve’s transgression and give them a new nature, at least not the moment they sinned. Why? Because of the law of sin and death."
God did forgive Adam and Eve's transgression the moment they sinned. They very moment they sinned, they were forgiven.
This is obvious by all that transpired in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Even sinned. That caused them to be afraid of God. They ran and hid. God went after them. He approached them in a way that they perceived He was not really angry with them. God explained to them the Plan of Salvation and gave them the animal skin which represents the righteousness of Christ. God did all of this before Adam and Even had done anything related to repentance.
God's attitude towards Adam and Even was not affected by their sin, other than they now had a problem that had to be dealt with. He loved them, forgave them, explained to the Plan of Salvation, and gave them the Sacrifice they needed.
"Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness, no probation, no new nature, no new life." Agreed. But why? Is there something about God which needed to change, or something about man?
"Jesus had to die in their place to pay the penalty of sin before God could restore man to his former glory."
Why?
"Also, time was needed for Satan’s principles to play out, so God couldn’t fix things right away; otherwise He would have fixed them then and there, that is, He would have restored Adam and Eve and He would have destroyed Satan and his followers. But time, lots of time, was needed."
This is exactly right. Time was needed for Satan's principles to play out, so God couldn't fix things right away. What was the reason Satan's principles had to play out?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11862
11/30/04 07:06 PM
11/30/04 07:06 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
We must second guess it all until we are convicted through and through.
I would rather believe what it says in God’s Word, and then spend the rest of my life trying to understand why it is so, not if it is so.
quote:
Why was not a sacrifice required when Satan rebelled in heaven sparking this whole GC? God asked him back time after time and yet without a sacrifice to preceed it.
Satan had not yet rebelled when God offered to reinstate Him. Eventually though he committed the unpardonable sin, and as such a blood sacrifice would not have served as a means of salvation.
DA 761, 762
But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. {DA 761.5}
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11863
11/30/04 07:49 PM
11/30/04 07:49 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
God did forgive Adam and Eve's transgression the moment they sinned. They very moment they sinned, they were forgiven.
Yes, of course, but not before Jesus pledged His blood on our behalf. Besides, you are overlooking the “and” in my post. Here it is again: "God could not, therefore, simply forgive Adam and Eve’s transgression and give them a new nature, at least not the moment they sinned. Why? Because of the law of sin and death." In other words, sin and death stood in the way of forgiveness and the restoration of all things, that is, until Jesus became “the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” But even still, the restoration of all things did not occur immediately. Why? The SOP quotes I posted above answers that question.
quote:
"Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness, no probation, no new nature, no new life." Agreed. But why? Is there something about God which needed to change, or something about man?
Why? Because of the law of sin and death. The wages of sin is death. Period. Exactly why God established such a law is not clear. In some ways it makes sense. Once a person sins beyond the point of no return, once he commits the unpardonable sin, there is nothing else God can do for him. In order to rid the universe of sin, God must necessarily eliminate sinners. Consequently, the wages of sin is death.
To save sinners from eternal death, God came up with a plan whereby we can be separated from our sins, thus separated from death. But in order for this plan to work, it was necessary for Jesus to become the lawful owner of our sin and second death. To do this, He had to live and die the perfect life and death. But more than this, Jesus had to consume and conquer our sin and second death, which is precisely what He did on the cross.
He earned the right to own our sin and second death before He cried, It is finished, before He died. So, why did He die? Since He was victorious before He died, why did He lay down His life? We may never fully understand the answer to this question - which is the best answer. However, this much makes sense to me, Jesus became the lawful owner of the keys of hell and of death when He consumed and conquered the second death on the cross, to demonstrate this ownership and His victory over sin and death, Jesus triumphantly marched into and out of the domain of death.
By consuming and conquering the second death on the cross, Jesus accomplished more, way more, than succumbing to the second death. First of all, had He died the second death, who is to say He died before the cup was empty? But since the cup was drained dry before He died, we can rest assured nothing remains for us to drink later on. By surviving the pain and agony of the second death, unto the bitter end, rather than dying the second death, Jesus endured all that could be suffered – and survived to proclaim – It is finished. Those who die the second death, die lost, and die eternally.
But Jesus survived the second death. He was alive after death dealt its final blow. Death had nothing else to deal out. Death was defeated. And yet, Jesus wasn’t dead. He was still alive. That’s how we can know for sure that, in Christ, we have eternal life abiding in us. In Christ, we have passed from death to life. Death did not defeat Jesus, no way, instead, Jesus defeated death. To prove it, He walked in and out of hell, using the keys of hell and of death. Did Jesus die the second death? Not at all. Instead, He tasted and consumed it, and He conquered it. Satan is the one who will die with our sin and second death in the lake of fire.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11864
11/30/04 08:19 PM
11/30/04 08:19 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Besides, you are overlooking the “and” in my post. Here it is again: "God could not, therefore, simply forgive Adam and Eve’s transgression and give them a new nature, at least not the moment they sinned. Why?" I didn't overlook it. I commented on it indirectly. The two things you are mentioning are separate. One has to do with what God does, and the other to what man does. God can and does forgive sin unilaterally, using the legal sense of the word. That is, in a legal sense God immediately forgave Adam and Eve. God did not need Christ's sacrifice in order to forgive us. We needed the sacrifice. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. God forgives because it is His nature to forgive. He forgives sinners, not sin, and He doesn't need a sacrifice in order to do so. The sacrifice was for us. As to the second part, not immediately give them a new nature, God could not do that apart from their volition. He must win back the trust which sin had robbed them of. They must be restored, healed, reconciled. This is exactly what the Plan of Salvation was to accomplish. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness, no probation, no new nature, no new life." Agreed. But why? Is there something about God which needed to change, or something about man? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Why? Because of the law of sin and death. The wages of sin is death. Period. Exactly why God established such a law is not clear." The "law of sin and death" is not some arbitrary thing God set up. Sin itself brings about death. Sin is deadly. The sting of death is sin. The wages of sin is death. This is not an arbitrary thing, but the true nature of sin. God always knew this, of course, but He could not immediately allow the consequences of sin to take place because of the possible misunderstanding that Satan and his cohorts death were due to the arbitrary act of God rather than due to deadliness of sin itself. quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. (DA 764)
The love of God is the stuff that life is made of. To know God is life eternal. Sin is selfishness, and selfishness kills because it cuts itself off from God, who is the source of life.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11865
12/01/04 01:24 AM
12/01/04 01:24 AM
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SDA
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Southwest USA
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quote:
God did not need Christ's sacrifice in order to forgive us. We needed the sacrifice.
Tom, as I mentioned elsewhere, this idea borders on heresy. The Bible clearly says, “Without shedding of blood is no remission.” Heb 9:22. God could not and cannot forgive us without the substitutionary death of Jesus, and not because we are too ignorant, hardhearted or immature to comprehend the sinfulness of sin without it. The law of sin and death demands the death of a sinner or a substitution. Just because we have a hard time reconciling this insight with a loving God, doesn’t make it untrue, not does it make God arbitrary or tyrannical.
quote:
The "law of sin and death" is not some arbitrary thing God set up. Sin itself brings about death. Sin is deadly. The sting of death is sin. The wages of sin is death. This is not an arbitrary thing, but the true nature of sin.
A part of me wants to believe this idea, Tom, really it does. But I cannot believe it because it denies the truth about the law of sin and death. The only reason why the wages of sin is the second death is because God has promised us eternal life if we obey Him and eternal death if we disobey Him. There is nothing about the law of sin and death that is natural. Yes, the effect is natural, but the cause is supernatural.
God had to prevent sinners from accessing and eating the fruit from the tree of life because it would perpetuate their miserable existence. Thus, we die the first death. Which is evidence death is not the natural consequences of sinning. But then God is going to resurrect the wicked, to judge them and to punish them, for rejecting His Son, His sacrifice, and His salvation. Everything about this death is supernatural – the resurrection, the judgment, the fire, the punishment, and the death.
I almost hate studying these things, because I would rather study the love and mercy of God. But, I also believe the wrath of God is love, it’s just that I cannot comprehend this truth as easily as I can relate to the love of God as manifested in the life of Jesus, and His faithful disciples, ancient and modern.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11866
12/01/04 05:50 AM
12/01/04 05:50 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Tom, as I mentioned elsewhere, this idea borders on heresy."
Who made you the judge of what passes for heresy? I have read some of the [this space intentionally left blank] ideas from you that I've seen anywhere, yet somehow have managed to refrain from labeling them as heresy, or making other of the harsh statements you routinely make. If I can control myself, so can you.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11867
12/01/04 05:54 AM
12/01/04 05:54 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"The Bible clearly says, 'Without shedding of blood is no remission.' Heb 9:22."
Agreed. My first post on justification explains my understanding of this text in detail.
"God could not and cannot forgive us without the substitutionary death of Jesus, and not because we are too ignorant, hardhearted or immature to comprehend the sinfulness of sin without it. The law of sin and death demands the death of a sinner or a substitution. Just because we have a hard time reconciling this insight with a loving God, doesn’t make it untrue, not does it make God arbitrary or tyrannical."
The law of sin and death is that sin causes death. It's not an arbitrary rule which God enacted because He had a personal problem with sin. It's not like sin would have been fine if only it didn't upset God.
I don't have any problem reconciling this insight, because it makes perfect sense. If you have trouble reconciling your ideas, perhaps it's because some of them are not correct.
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