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Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: gordonb1] #118668
09/02/09 04:59 PM
09/02/09 04:59 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold or Gordon, in what way is fallen nature not defiled or corrupt?

Think of Christ's humiliation. He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin. He took our sorrows, bearing our grief and shame. He endured all the temptations wherewith man is beset. {4BC 1147.4}

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Mountain Man] #118675
09/02/09 06:13 PM
09/02/09 06:13 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

Mike,

Christ was not corrupt.
____

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: gordonb1] #118681
09/02/09 06:48 PM
09/02/09 06:48 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, EGW appears to use the word "corrupted" to imply a participation in sin, whereas the word "defiled" she doesn't. So Christ took a nature that was defiled, but not corrupted. I realize that as far as ordinary English is concerned, these words are synonyms, but this appears to be how Ellen White expressed the concept.

I know you agree with this, but I'll spell it out for general consumption. What inspiration says is that Christ had flesh just like ours, but never sinned in that flesh.

Here's how W. W. Prescott put it, in a sermon Ellen White endorsed:

Quote:
But since the first Adam took his place, there has been a change, and humanity is sinful humanity. The power of righteousness has been lost. To redeem man from the place into which he had fallen, Jesus Christ comes, and takes the very flesh now borne by humanity; He comes in sinful flesh, and takes the case where Adam tried it and failed. (Avondale, 1896)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Rosangela] #118686
09/02/09 09:30 PM
09/02/09 09:30 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: teresaq
Originally Posted By: asygo
[quote=teresaq]in conclusion:
Quote:
asygo: Here's another quote to ponder:
Quote:
Man was to bear God's image, both in outward resemblance and in character. Christ alone is "the express image" (Hebrews 1:3) of the Father; but man was formed in the likeness of God. {PP 45.2}
The image and likeness of God, which was given to man, included character. Are babies born in the image of God, even a little bit? Yes, that image has been marred and well-nigh obliterated, but is there something left of God's image in infants?
i cant see how anything you have said proves that babies are capable of thoughts....

nor do i see how a baby having thoughts or not would be necessary for your argument, if there is any validity to your argument.
Well, if you don't see how a baby's lack of thoughts impacts how he can have the image of God, the problem is not the validity of my argument but what you think God's image entails.
this sounds like dealing with the person as opposed to the issue.


Quote:
A:A person who has guts to comment on the validity of arguments she has never quite considered. Your argument is flawed. Unfortunately, you would rather blame the flaw on others.


Arnold, I'm having trouble following some of this.

It seems to me teresa didn't understand something you wrote, and asked you to explain your meaning, and you declined to do so, saying the problem was with her. How does this help her understand your argument?

And then when she pointed out that you had addressed her rather than her question, you said her argument was flawed, but she would rather blame others. What argument, that's flawed, is this? And how is she blaming others? And she prefers blaming others to doing what? And what's the answer to her question?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118688
09/02/09 09:33 PM
09/02/09 09:33 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Tom and Mike,

Please bear in mind that she is referring here to two distinct things as not being corrupted: the nature Christ took ("Christ took our nature, fallen but not corrupted"), and the nature He developed ("and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God").

Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Rosangela] #118699
09/03/09 12:39 AM
09/03/09 12:39 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
As far as I'm aware, EGW was consistent in her use of the word "corrupted" or "corrupt" to mean participation in sin. She said Christ took our nature "defiled" and "degraded" by sin. In ordinary English, these are synonyms of "corrupted," as a thesaurus will corroborate. If she just meant "defiled" or "degraded" by "corrupted" then she'd be saying that Christ took our nature, "defiled" and "degraded" but not "defiled" or "degraded." So she had something in mind other than "defiled" or "degraded" by "corrupted," and what that is is shown by her use of the word. For example,"and would not be corrupted unless He received the words of Satan in the place of the words of God."

Christ's came in sinful flesh, which was just like ours. In that flesh, He perfectly overcame, preparing the way for us.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118704
09/03/09 01:03 AM
09/03/09 01:03 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
She uses the word "corruption" several times referring to sinful tendencies, obviously both inherited and cultivated.

"What a warning to keep the grace of Christ ever in their heart, to battle with inward corruptions and outward temptations!" (Letter 51, 1886). {2BC 1031.6}

"As long as life shall last, there is need of guarding the affections and the passions with a firm purpose. There is inward corruption, there are outward temptations, and wherever the work of God shall be advanced, Satan plans so to arrange circumstances that temptation shall come with overpowering force upon the soul. Not one moment can we be secure only as we are relying upon God, the life hid with Christ in God" (Letter 8b, 1891). {2BC 1032.1}


Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Rosangela] #118707
09/03/09 01:14 AM
09/03/09 01:14 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Again, if she is using the word "corrupted" to mean "defiled" and "degraded" then she is saying that Christ took our fallen nature, "degraded and defiled" but not "degraded and defiled."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: Tom] #118708
09/03/09 01:28 AM
09/03/09 01:28 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Again, if she is using the word "corrupted" to mean "defiled" and "degraded" then she is saying that Christ took our fallen nature, "degraded and defiled" but not "degraded and defiled."

I'm not following this. Where does Mrs. White say that Christ took our nature, corrupted but not corrupted?

In English, "fallen" and "corrupted" are not the same thing. It appears you are saying they are.

"Corrupt" is a strong word. Any definition of it relating to character implies sin. If Jesus had a corrupt nature, then He would have been a sinner. His nature cannot, therefore, have been corrupted.

The only other use of the word "corruption" with Jesus had to do with His body in the grave...it was not allowed to see corruption, meaning it was not there long enough to decay.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Jesus' Humanity and Nature on Earth [Re: gordonb1] #118716
09/03/09 02:51 AM
09/03/09 02:51 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Mike,

Christ was not corrupt.
____

Amen! But was He "defiled"?

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