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Re: Blood of Christ
#11868
12/01/04 07:01 AM
12/01/04 07:01 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"I almost hate studying these things, because I would rather study the love and mercy of God. But, I also believe the wrath of God is love, it’s just that I cannot comprehend this truth as easily as I can relate to the love of God as manifested in the life of Jesus, and His faithful disciples, ancient and modern."
I think you've got it backwards Mike. It's God's love that is His wrath. "Who can dwell with the everlasting flames?... The righteous" God is not schizophrenic. The everlasting flame, the consuming fire, is agape. The same love which heals the willing destroys the unwilling, just like the same sun which melts the ice bakes the clay.
In the destruction of the wicked, God is no different than in Eden, on the cross, or in the life of Christ in the flesh on earth. God is agape, and God does not change.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11869
12/02/04 04:46 AM
12/02/04 04:46 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, labeling an idea as blasphemous or heretical is not the same as condemning the person advocating it, not is it bad form or unChristlike. Please do not take it personally. Besides, you are not the author of the ideas you are advocating, and neither am I the author of the ones I've been advocating - so that means neither one of us get the credit or the blame.
Which is it - Love is the wrath of God or the wrath of God is love? Both seem right to me. The Bible is repleat with examples of God using water, fire and war to punish and destroy His enemies. I don't understand how such a loving Lord can kill so many people, but it doesn't prevent me from accepting it, even if by faith alone. It's not called a "strange act" for nothing.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11870
12/01/04 11:09 PM
12/01/04 11:09 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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God doesn't "kill so many people." God protects and loves people. When people refuse God, they refuse His protection. quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. (GC 35)
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11871
12/01/04 11:12 PM
12/01/04 11:12 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Tom, labeling an idea as blasphemous or heretical is not the same as condemning the person advocating it, not is it bad form or unChristlike."
It is more considerate to preface remarks with "I believe" or "I think" or some such thing. For example, "To me your idea is heresy." I would prefer you write in this way, if you feel you must refer to an idea as heresy or in some such deragotory way. Better yet would be to just present your views without the hyperbole.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11872
12/02/04 01:13 AM
12/02/04 01:13 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Okay. No more condemnation. Now, about that quote you posted above. Do you believe that this specific insight, regarding this specific situation, applies to the Flood, and to Sodom and Gomorrah, and to the plagues in Egypt, and the seven last plagues? If not, then how do you explain them?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11873
12/02/04 05:51 AM
12/02/04 05:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Let's suppose for the sake of argument I said I didn't think the examples you gave followed the same principle I quoted from GC, what would you then conclude?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11874
12/02/04 07:54 PM
12/02/04 07:54 PM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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That you're at least not willing to twist the obvious meaning of those stories to serve your belief that God does not destroy sinners. What do you believe? and, how do we relate this to the topic - Blood of Christ?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11875
12/02/04 09:26 PM
12/02/04 09:26 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Let's consider the law of sin and death. Two views.
View 1 - An arbitrary law which God established. Sin will be punished by God.
1. God must punish sin by death. Christ takes our sin, which allows God to punish Christ instead of us.
2. The wicked who choose not to repent must be punished by death at the second resurrection.
View 2 - Sin causes death
1. Christ "becomes sin for us" and suffers death as the result. God is not punishing His Son, but suffers with Him. God was crucified with Christ.
2. The wicked who choose not to repent do not allow God to rescue them from the effects of sin. They separate themselves from God and die.
I believe in View 2. I have tried to express what you believe in View 1. If I'm off, please correct it to reflect your thoughts. Thank you.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11876
12/03/04 01:45 AM
12/03/04 01:45 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Why do you insist calling the first view arbitrary? What is so arbitrary about punishing and destroying sinners who refuse to accept Jesus as their Saviour?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11877
12/03/04 03:57 AM
12/03/04 03:57 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Why do you insist calling the first view arbitrary? What is so arbitrary about punishing and destroying sinners who refuse to accept Jesus as their Saviour?
First of all, I don't "insist" on calling it arbitrary. I specifically asked for your input, and still do. I asked you to correct me if I misrepresented your view.
Secondly, I think "arbitrary" was a well chosen word which accurately represents your position. "Arbitrary" means "Depending on individual discretion and not fixed by law." You have denied that the "law of sin and death" has a cause and effect relationship, if I am understanding you correctly. It appears to me you are stating that it's only a "law" because God established it. That's exactly what "arbitrary" means: "depending on individual discretion."
But again, Mike, if you disagree with how I characterized your view, please explain your view. Certainly no one is more qualified to do this than you are. I do not in any way wish to put words in your mouth.
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