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Re: Blood of Christ
#11898
12/07/04 10:55 PM
12/07/04 10:55 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
But the fact is, He has killed (i.e., destroyed) hundreds and thousands and millions of people since the Flood, and He will kill millions and billions more in the lake of fire. God, not sin and death, is in control of sin and death.
You have a totally different concept of God than I do. I believe God is love, such love as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ. When I see His life portraid in the Gospels, I do not see the picture of a mass killer.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11899
12/07/04 11:01 PM
12/07/04 11:01 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Christ died of a broken heart.
"I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. (Ps. 22:14)"
"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. (Ps. 69:20)"
"It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. (DA 753)"
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11900
12/08/04 04:19 AM
12/08/04 04:19 AM
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SDA
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Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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quote:
That is, God did not force anyone to sin.
God did not force anyone to sin, is another way of saying, God is not the author of sin.
quote:
God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.
The situation, which God created that made sin and death inevitable, was creating beings that He knew would choose to sin. It's another way of saying, God is the author of sin and death.
quote:
You have a totally different concept of God than I do.
Ignoring the facts doesn’t make them go away. God killed millions and He will kill millions more in the lake of fire. Though a mystery, and a strange act, it is nevertheless, a demonstration of God’s control, and God’s love. The wrath of God is love.
Yes, drinking the cup of God’s wrath, on our behalf, broke the heart of Jesus, but it didn’t kill Him. He laid down His own life, but not until after He defeated sin and the second death, on our behalf.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11901
12/08/04 07:18 PM
12/08/04 07:18 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: God did not force anyone to sin, is another way of saying, God is not the author of sin. Tom: These are two completely different things, and it surprises me that you do not see the difference. An author is one who brings a work into being. It may or may not be by force. There is nothing in authorship that implies force. Saying God is the author of sin implies that He is its originator. This is a deception of the devil, who actually is the author of sin. Mike: The situation, which God created that made sin and death inevitable, was creating beings that He knew would choose to sin. It's another way of saying, God is the author of sin and death. Tom: God created free beings with the capacity to sin. God is not the author of sin. Satan is. quote:
The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death.
If you say God put into effect a situation whose inevitable results were that Adam and Eve would sin, how are you doing anything different than what Satan is accusing God of?
Mike: Ignoring the facts doesn’t make them go away.
Tom: That's true, and the fact is that the truth about God is most clearly seen in Jesus Christ, who was neither a torturer nor a mass killer.
Mike: Yes, drinking the cup of God’s wrath, on our behalf, broke the heart of Jesus, but it didn’t kill Him.
Tom: I'm not sure what your saying. Christ was a human being, as well as God. As God, He was the Resurrection and the Life. No one could take His life away from Him. He was Sorverign over all life, including His own human life. No one could force Him to die, but He volunteered to die.
Christ did die, and He would not have died had it not been for sin.
When one studies Christ's death, one sees the same thing happening to Him as to the wicked. For example:
1) He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice.
2) Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race.
3) It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute... (all quotes from DA "Calvary")
There's also this statement from "It is finished"
quote:
He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. (DA 761)
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11902
12/08/04 08:16 PM
12/08/04 08:16 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Christ died as a mortal but was raised in a glorified body. Does the glorified body of Christ have blood pulsing through its veins? Apparently it does. Is the blood of the glorified Christ the same as His human blood? How could it be - His glorified body is not subject to death.
But we see that the Blood of the risen Christ is the focal point of His ministry in that it is used to purify the heavenly places of the Sanctuary. If the Sanctuary is a real place, the Blood of Christ must also be real. . . and the converse would also be true. Are you ready to turn the Heavenly Santaury into a metaphore as well?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11903
12/08/04 11:12 PM
12/08/04 11:12 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2020
4500+ Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
USA
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Notwithstanding His glorified state, Christ retains His human form. He was handled by the disciples to confirm this truth in the church. He ate with them in His glorified form. He is still fully human, praise God, but in glorified form.
His human heart pumps glorified human blood and it is this blood that unlocks paradise to us mortals. Remember the spiritual 'I know it was the blood'. . . the song is true, friends.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11904
12/09/04 12:51 AM
12/09/04 12:51 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Jesus said, "Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:53, 54)
Is this speaking of Christ's literal blood? Are we saved by literally drinking His literal blood?
I'm sorry Mark, but I can't understand what you mean by saying that the blood of Christ is His literal blood. Stacie's original question was "How does the blood of Christ wash us from our sins?" Is the answer that Christ literally washes us with His literal blood? Or does it mean that, thanks to His giving His life for us, our sins our forgiven when we believe in Him?
Please explain what you mean in saying Christ's literal blood is being referred to.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11905
12/09/04 04:18 AM
12/09/04 04:18 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, are you saying Jesus did not kill millions of people in the OT?
Mark, I agree with you. The blood that runs through Jesus' veins is real. Drinking His blood symbolizes living His life. The blood that He shed for us on the cross was as real as the blood He bears for us in heaven.
God cannot die, therefore, Jesus became a human so that He could die. Why? Because the wages of sin is death. Someone had to die for the sins we commit. The death of Jesus was the only way God could justify forgiving our sins and granting us eternal life.
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11906
12/09/04 05:03 AM
12/09/04 05:03 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
The blood that runs through Jesus' veins is real.
Is anyone questioning this? Do you think the issue is whether Jesus' blood is real?
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Re: Blood of Christ
#11907
12/09/04 02:02 PM
12/09/04 02:02 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, are you saying Jesus did not kill millions of people in the OT? If so, then why and how did they die?
Does anyone here, on MSDAOL, doubt Jesus' blood is real? Probably not. But why He had to shed His blood on the cross does seem to create questions. Did God require the blood of Jesus in order to justify granting us probation? in order to justify forgiving us? in order to justify rewarding us with eternal life?
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