Huh?



I can't comment without something concrete. If Eli was righteous, he'll be in heaven. A righteous man can make mistakes with the raising of his children and still be in heaven. Samuel also had problems with his children. The quote I provided shows Eli responding as one would expect a righteous man to respond.

If you come up with something concrete, I'd be happy to look at. It seems to me that to argue from the quotes you presented that Eli won't be in heaven would be a great stretch. Again, Samuel had trouble with his children. So did David. I'm sure many others could be mentioned. The question isn't if Eli made mistakes, but if he repented. The response I quoted previously seems to me to sound like that someone who had repented would say.

But men are accustomed to this process, and they drop God out of their thoughts, thinking that they themselves are doing the work. They do not give God the glory due to his name.

But it takes just as much power to prepare the harvest which men garner as to make a few barley loaves serve for so many thousands.

God gives us all that is needed to sustain life, and in so doing, he is daily working miracles.

Were it not for these miracles, which are so graciously repeated in our behalf, we would be weary, hungry, starving, and dying.

But God, full of mercy and compassion, constantly cares for us; and because there is no cessation of his goodness,

because we are surrounded by his miracles, we cease to appreciate his continually increasing mercies.

Fixing our eyes upon human instrumentalities, we give the glory to men, and ascribe the miracles of God to natural causes.

Men allow the enemy of God to lead them to glorify men in the place of praising their Creator.

Many convert the rich provisions of nature into unnatural stimulants, and thus pervert the good things of God.

They becloud the intellect, and wear out the delicate organs of the system by the indulgence of the appetite. They banish God from their thoughts, and act as did the inhabitants of the Noatic world, polluting the earth by their sins. Thus man dishonors his God. {ST, August 12, 1897 par. 9}

Tom,

That doesn't answer any of the questions. You are welcome to be long-winded in any response to them, but a simple yes or no will suffice. Do you not understand the questions?

Tom, I have heard you hint toward each of these possibilities in God's dealing with us, but you have never spoken plainly (at least the explanations were never clear to me) as to which of these best represent your view. I thought perhaps in the case of Eli, it might be simpler to explain in concrete terms. I'm sure you have more skill in the area of abstract thought than I. I usually need things explained in more logical/concrete form before I can grasp them.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No, I don't understand the questions.

Regarding how God deals with us, I believe GC 35-37 laid out the principles clearly. Here's an excerpt:



Regarding Eli, I don't know what you're thinking. You're putting Eli in the place of God as some sort of analogy?

I think it would be easier if you simply explained your thought, and I'd respond to that. Or you can try asking a different question or questions that I understand. As posed, I'd have to respond to each of your questions with other questions.

Eli's sin was allowing his wicked sons to continue to hold sacred office.
He should have removed them from office years earlier.

The penalty for the conduct of Eli's sons was death.
What did God command Moses to do with those who were guilty of adultery? They should be stoned to death.

1 Sam. 2:22 "Now Eli was very old, and heard all that his sons did unto all Israel; and how they lay with the women that assembled [at] the door of the tabernacle of the congregation."

Lev. 20:10 "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Being in position of spiritual authority, the rebellious nature of these men turned people away from God.

The Bible is pretty brutally clear as to what Eli was to do.

Duet. 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and [that], when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Eli's sons are lost for eternity.
I didn't read anything that Eli was lost for eternity.

"The history of Eli is a terrible example of the results of parental unfaithfulness. Through his neglect of duty, his sons became a snare to their fellow men and an offense to God, forfeiting not only the present but the future life. Their evil example destroyed hundreds, and the influence of these hundreds corrupted the morals of thousands. This case should be a warning to all parents. While some err upon the side of undue severity, Eli went to the opposite extreme. He indulged his sons to their ruin. Their faults were overlooked in their childhood, and excused in their days of youth. The commands of the parents were disregarded, and the father did not enforce obedience.
1010
The children saw that they could hold the lines of control, and they improved the opportunity. As the sons advanced in years, they lost all respect for their fainthearted father. They went on in sin without restraint. He remonstrated with them, but his words fell unheeded. Gross sins and revolting crimes were daily committed by them, until the Lord Himself visited with judgment the transgressors of His law. {2BC 1009.8}
We have seen the result of Eli's mistaken kindness,--death to the indulgent father, ruin and death to his wicked sons, and destruction to thousands in Israel. The Lord Himself decreed that for the sins of Eli's sons no atonement should be made by sacrifice or offering forever. How great, how lamentable, was their fall,--men upon whom rested sacred responsibilities, proscribed, outlawed from mercy, by a just and holy God!" {2BC 1010.1}

Tom,

Let's set those questions aside for a moment and ask a simpler one:

How should Eli have punished his sons?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, I think to understand the incidents where God appears to be acting violently in the O.T., or where God counsels Israel, or Israelites, to do violent things or use capital punishment, requires one to have a firm grasp of God's character to start with. According to the SOP, all that man can know about God was revealed in the life and character of His Sin while He was here with us in the flesh. God was constrained to do many things He would rather not have done in His dealings with Israel, and Israelites, because of the hardness of their hearts.

In the case of Eli, had he raised his sons as God had wished in the first place, the problems that later arose would never have arisen. I think the idea that we can better learn of God's character by studying the case of Eli then by studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ is not a good one. To know what God is like, we should be asking questions about Jesus Christ, not Eli.

Assuming your question regarding Eli is in regards to the SOP quote, Eli should have acted as the quote lays out.

ellen whites points are regarding indulgent parents and the results. (she also addresses controlling parents and those results.)

so the point i get from her is in reference to how we should raise our children.

as to what eli should have done...the series in the signs of the times of 1881 she said this of God:

Do you disagree that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? Do you disagree with the book of Malachi?

Do you think Mrs. White did not do this? Do you feel she was wrong to write about the case of Eli?


Yes, the questions were centered around that quote. Therefore, based on this statement, it is fair to say that your answers to the three earlier questions would have been in the negative. This would fully agree with my own answers to those questions. And you have stated that Eli himself "should have acted as the quote lays out." The quote laid out the death penalty for his sons. Eli was the judge of Israel, and vested with such authority. More importantly, every parent was vested with this authority according to the laws of Moses.

Now, I am back to the question I asked earlier:

"Would God require of His servants something that He Himself did not exemplify? If Eli was supposed to have executed justice against sinners, will God also refrain from this?"

Your earlier response indicated that you agreed that God would also act in justice. As the case with Eli indicates, this justice must be actively executed, not merely by adopting a "wait and see" attitude until sin works its own justice. God must step in and execute righteousness Himself. Do you also agree with this?

If you think God merely permits the devil to do this work of punishment, I have one question more: Do you think God permitted the devil to enter the Holy Place of His Sanctuary to slay the two drunk sons of Aaron?

To bring this clearly around to the topic of this thread: If you feel that God permits the devil to do the "violent acts," is this because you feel that God has no wrath Himself?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.