Mike wrote:
The reason I keep mentioning the fact God is in control is because He is the author of life and death. Yes, I know Sister White uses the word "author of death" in a different sense. And, of course, I agree with her. That is, God did not force anyone to sin. But the fact is, He has killed (i.e., destroyed) hundreds and thousands and millions of people since the Flood, and He will kill millions and billions more in the lake of fire. God, not sin and death, is in control of sin and death.

Unquote.

You are perfectly right Mike and this is a truth of the Bible.

In His love

James S.

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The reason I keep mentioning the fact God is in control is because He is the author of life and death. Yes, I know Sister White uses the word "author of death" in a different sense. And, of course, I agree with her.
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How is she using the term in any way different than yours? She stated that Satan has attempted to present God as the author of sin, suffering and death. That's exactly what you're saying. You said:
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God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable.

If you really believe this, the logical conclusion is that God is the author of suffering and death, as well as being the author of sin, since without sin there would be no suffering and death. So you have the whole picture. God is the author of sin, suffering and death. What makes you think you're using the term any differenly than she is?

God is NOT the author of death. It is a blight on God's character to say such a thing. One hears these sorts of things from non-SDA's all the time, but this is not SDA theology and never has been. We have a direct statement from the Spirit of Prophesy specifically speaking to this very point.

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Seems that Tom Ewall has a problem to understand Mike’s view and to grasp the truth of the Bible.

Surely Satan has attempted to present God as the author of sin, suffering and death, which would give an impression that God is cruel, savage and a tyrant. And millions of people believe this, which make them have no need for a savior and see Jesus Christ as a mere man, they seek eternal life through their own works.

But the truth is that Satan is the author of sin and suffering, God is the author of death. But death would not happen if there is no sin, and God had created angels and men not for to die but for living eternally.

So, can you see the truth now.

God did not create sin, he created holiness and righteousness, but those holy and righteous angel and man has freedom to choose, where they choused to serve SELF more than to serve God their creator, and sin was born. Sin and sinners must be eliminated forever from the Kingdom of God, but until sin is revealed to it utmost and the mask of Satan is opened, there would be no elimination yet.

How could sin kill a sinner? Mike is right, if sin does kill the sinner, then Satan, the author of sin is in control, and Satan would never die, because he is in control of the death. This means that sin would remain forever in the universe and kingdom of God. Oohhh…..what a view??

Surely God is responsible for creating intelligent living beings with a free will to choose, which create a situation where sin and death is inevitable. But he had taken this responsibility by dying for us in a weak human body to redeem our sins and gave our lives back. God is willing to become human in the likeness of sinful flesh to be tempted by Satan and his gangs, long before God create anything, this is to show his responsibility, his justice, his love and his righteousness.

Now, God had every right to kill a sinner, for Christ had come and die for sinners in order they might be saved back unto life again. If Christ didn’t come, then surely God has no right in killing sinners, for we didn’t ask to be born in sin.

With an open mind we may see the truth revealed here.

In His love

James S

There are mysteries involved here - the greatest being that we really do not know how the Holy Spirit regenerates and resuscitates the human heart. It is like the wind Jesus said. We see the results, but don’t know how it was done. But we have been told in scripture that it is through the blood of Christ that the Spirit does these things and that atonement is made in the heavenly sanctuary. So while we cannot say exactly how it is accomplished, we accept by faith that these things are true and real.

So, again I’ll repeat my question to you Tom: In your mind if the blood of Christ is a metaphor, is the heavenly sanctuary that it cleanses a metaphor as well? Do you believe that the sanctuary in heaven is a real place? Do you believe it is being cleaned or purified? If so, how do you think that is being done?

There is a vision in which Sister White actually saw the atonement process in the heavenly sanctuary. I think it is in Early Writings where she was shown that Christ lifts his nail pierced hands and pleads his blood on behalf of sinners. She quotes Christ directly as saying; "My blood! Father, My blood, My blood!" or words close to those.

If you read Hebrews, the blood sacrifice is upheld as the means of atonement. It also makes it clear that the blood is a symbol of life. However, we need to also acknowledge that the blood is also a symbol of death. Both are essential ingredients in our salvation. I am finding that it is the death aspect of the sacrifice that has become repugnant to a segment of Adventists who are keen to change this foundational doctrine - the death of the subsitutionary victim.

So, it would seem, Mike and James, that your image of God is one of a "loving" blood-thirsty mass murderer, who actually didn't mean anything by "Thou shalt not kill", as He Himself has and will slaughter "billions"...quite a scary vision of Jesus...far beyond a "strange act".

To call God a murderer is a dangerous act: it is painting Him in the likeness of the destroyer, Satan.
Be very careful of your words here, gentleman, as they are being weighed in the Heavenly scales as you type.

Did God require the death of His own Son? If God did not spare His Son or the angels who fell, will He spare mortals who spurn His grace and trample on the blood and sacrifice of Christ?

There is an interplay here between sin and it's effects. However, in order to maintain both the sovereignity and gracious character of God, we have to acknowledge that He is the one who has elected us for salvation. He is the prime mover in giving life to the church. But, He is also the One who upholds the universal law of liberty and meets out the reward of the wicked. The wicked may perish as a result of their own choices, but I think we make a mistake if we don't acknowledge that the harvest that the wicked reap is the result of transgression of the laws governing the universe and that the ultimate enforcement of those laws is a matter of divine sovereignity.

Thank you, Tom, for clarifying the difference between murderer and killer. I wasn't even going to bother addressing that post. Perhaps the word "executioner" is better than killer. But the fact remains, an executioner is responsible for killing convicted criminals. For people who favor capital punishment, which God does, they don't view the executioner as a murderer, or even as someone who is arbitrary or unloving. He is simply caring out the will of the people, in accordance with the law of the land.

I believe Jesus “shed His blood” on the cross, a metaphor that means Jesus died on the cross, because God cannot justify forgiving us and saving us without it. The wages of sin is death, therefore, Jesus had to die our death to satisfy the holy and just claims of the law of sin and death, and to give God the legal right to forgive us and to save us. So, the death of Jesus on the cross was very much real, and very much required. Without it, God has no legal right to forgive us or to save us.

God cannot disregard our sin, or ignore the law, and save us anyhow, just because He’s a nice guy, a loving and merciful Father. Such a thing would implicate God. It would make Him lawless and arbitrary, which would put the whole universe in peril, and jeopardize the eternal security of free moral agents. No one would be able to completely trust God, because there would be no standard or guideline to regulate right and wrong, or what could be expected of God. Uncertainty, fear and chaos would replace law and order.

I see two laws at work. You sin, you suffer. That's the first law. You refuse to abide in Jesus, you choose to be punished and killed in the lake of fire. That's the other law.

Killer, murderer, executioner...the end result is identical; not chastisment or rebuke...but oblivian forever.

Sorry Mike; I don't mean to bother you, merely to join in.

To see God even as an executioner is a mistake, according to Sister White:

"But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin, and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty." {GC88 36.2}

Who caused the flood waters to inundate the earth?
God Bless,
Will