If we are the one sinning, why, then, would we blame it on sinful flesh? For example, X murdered Y while robbing him. Who is to blame? X or his sinful flesh? Who would be sent to prison? I believe the judge and jury would find X guilty of murder and not his sinful flesh. Again, sinful flesh cannot sin - it can only tempt us to sin. And, as you know, it is not a sin to be tempted. If it was, then Jesus sinned since He was tempted the same as us.


How sinful and imperfect can we be and still be entitled and fit for heaven? Will Jesus simply erase our unconquered cultivated sinful traits and habits when He arrives to take us home to heaven? If so, what is He waiting for? Why not return now and simply change everybody who desires to be in heaven? Why not simply make them sinless and perfect?

If it is impossible to overcome every sinful habit, why doesn't Jesus just return now and eliminate the evil habits we cannot stop doing? Why is He waiting and allowing us to sin against God, ourselves, our family, and our friends? If we cannot stop sinning, if we cannot attain unto perfection, what sense does it make for Jesus to wait? According to you, He certainly isn't waiting for us to crucify self or to cease sinning. What, then, do you think Jesus is waiting for? Why hasn't He returned yet?


Our title to heaven and our for fitness for heaven are two different aspects of salvation. It is the title to heaven that everyone who is in a saving relationship with Jesus has in common. Our title to heaven is the result of what Jesus was empowered to do for us. As such, our title to heaven is based on what Jesus did for us and not on what He empowers us to do for Him.

However, the fitness for heaven varies from person to person. It is the result of what Jesus empowers them to do. Paul, for example, was more fit (more mature in the fruits of the Spirit) than the thief on the cross. But being more fit does not mean being more entitled. Our entitlement to heaven is forever unchanging; whereas, our fitness for heaven is forever changing.

The difference between Paul's fitness for heaven and the thief's is measured in terms of maturation - not in terms of sinfulness and imperfection. In other words, Paul wasn't more fit than the thief because he was less sinful and imperfect. He was more fit for heaven because he was mature in the fruits of the Spirit. Both were recreated in Christ sinless and perfect when they experienced the miracle of rebirth.

Most people do not, however, experience real, genuine rebirth. At least not initially. They are, at best, partially born again. But God does not acknowledge them as truly born again. Some go on and experience real, genuine rebirth, but most do not.

"The new birth is a rare experience in this age of the world. This is the reason why there are so many perplexities in the churches. Many, so many, who assume the name of Christ are unsanctified and unholy. They have been baptized, but they were buried alive. Self did not die, and therefore they did not rise to newness of life in Christ. (6BC 1075)

MM.

Killing is not the desires that I includes in the desires of the flesh.

Habits that lead to sin, is my focus.

A new born believer has the mind of Christ and a new heart, but he still has habits that might lead to sin when he followed it. Like smoking, drinking, lying, judging people, anger, etc. His new heart needs time to learn and comprehend what love to his neighbor is. When he did not do what is good to his fellowmen, he sinned. And what is good to our fellowmen? There are a lot, I believe. His former life was selfish, he didn’t care for anybody else except his own. This habit would not perish the time he was reborn, it would take time, with the maturing of his faith and knowledge about God.

There are many things that I believe considered as sinning, even though it doesn’t breach God’s 10 commandments, but not good enough to show his love for his neighbor. He is still not perfect in character, love and faith, but IF he lives a life lead by the Spirit and the willingness to love his neighbor, I believe that he would come to perfection of character, love and spirit that is FIT for heaven.

But during that time, could he says to himself that he has led a sinless life? Could you? Could anybody?

All this imperfection comes from our sinful body where we still lives in. Change this to a new holy body, and you will have perfection in all manners.

So, I would blame the sins I committed to this sinful body.



A sinner could not be entitled to enter heaven, but the son of God YES! Who are the sons of God? Only those who had made a perfect sinless life all their life time? No! The sons of God are those who believe in Christ, who lead a life led by the Spirit, who love his neighbors? Are they sinless perfect life? Not all of them, some yes. They had crucified their will perfectly and only live by the will of the Spirit, and thus they could overcome their flesh desires, living a perfect sinless life in this sinful body. But the rest, struggled from time to time and sinned, but they keep going a faithful life and love their neighbors. Even thought they couldn’t come to the state of leading a perfect sinless life, at least they had tried it. But they will live this sinful perfect life once they are transformed into their new body, for the source that leads to sin is gone.



What is Jesus waiting for, my answer is not because he waits till all believers attain a perfect sinless life, but because the Scripture hasn’t been preach to the last man on earth. Who is that last man on earth? Only God who knows that! He came and died to save people, and till the last person on earth knew about this, he will wait.

I believe that when he comes, there are some who has reach the perfect sinless life condition, but much more are not. But are those who are not sinless and perfect lost forever? No! As long they maintained a faithful life and has the love of God in their hearts, they are fit for heaven, because, due to their sinful body, they couldn’t come to the sinless perfect state, which says, they did sin from time to time. But as long they were sorry and repented all the time, God forgives them. That what God’s saving grace is. Not only saves us from our sins, but saves us from the penalty of sin.

The thief on the cross was the one and best example, and if God could do this to one man, why should he make exception to anybody else? The point is, this thief died the day he accept Jesus, having a sinful life all his life. How God would ban those who have leaded a faithful life and love their neighbors but hasn’t yet come to the perfection state of a sinless and holy life? He would be unfair if he do that.

But is there any place in heaven for a man, who hasn’t the love of God in his heart? The one that still leads a selfish life? NO! He is not fit for heaven.

In His love

No, it doesn't inply that that sinful body is more powerful than the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is nore powerful than the desires of this sinful body. But who can say from this day on, that they could lead a perfect sinless life till the end of their day? 5 years, 10 years, 25 years, 40 years sinless perfect life??

The answer is only with an IF... If.....if.....

So, the point is not you only could enter heaven when you have made a sinless perfect life in whole of your life time, but, you enter heaven because you have led a faithful life and love your negihbors.

At least that what I believe.

In His love.

You wrote, "If you sin from time to time, are you to be blamed? No! It is the sinful body to be blamed!" The SOP tells us that the flesh, of itself, cannot act contrary to the will of God, where "flesh" is the same thing as "sinful nature." This seems to be common sense. If we sin, it's our mind, which houses our will, that's to blame, not our flesh. This is the point I was making.

Regarding going to heaven, I believe God will take all to heaven who would be happy there. Those who would be happy in heaven, are those who have chosen to respond to the Holy Spirit, who presents Christ to us.

the fallacy i see in this is that the thief died. we are alive.

but if we find ourselves still "sinful", falling now and again, or even regularly, we just need to go to our Saviour. He said He was able to save to the uttermost. He didnt lie.

if we put our life in His hands He brings us to the point where we hate what we are doing and give it up.

I know, that the flesh can not sin of it self, but it is the source of sinful desires due to along time habits serving the flesh. Therefore it needs to be transformed. That is the point! Otherwise no one need transformation to a holy body, right? If at rebirth, we are given also a holy body than there is nothing to blame except self. same like Adam when sinned while having a perfect holy body, no one to blame except self, he blamed his wife,and Eve blamed the serpent. But in our case, we have something to blame, our sinful body. That what God wants to recreate, through transformation at Christ 2nd coming.

And I also know that the body can be subjected to the power of the mind of Christ, but, what I want to say is, when you failed and sinned, it doesn't make you lost the Spirit or the mind of Christ, your new heart, and need to be reborn again, it is not like that, nothing change, I didn't agree with MM, saying that the moment we sinned, the Holy Spirit is gone and we fall back again in our old man life. What I think is that the life still goes on the same way, having the mind of Christ and a new heart, it is only a matter of bringing the body to subjection of the mind. When you failed in one case, ask for God forgiveness. Only if you keep following the desires of the flesh, you will elapse again in the old life style, and having again a stony heart and the mind of self.

With that in mind, I would say that the fitness for heaven is not to have a perfect sinless life, but as you say, who is happy in heaven, he would be there. As I say, who has the love to his neighbors he would be there. No one who still live for self would be happy in heaven, that is the most important thing. And thus, closing the gate of heaven for their own.

In His love

James, I know English is a struggle for you, and you're doing a good job with it. I'd like to encourage you. I think some of the disagreements I have with you is due to your English.

If you say the flesh is an excuse for sin, then I would disagree with that. If you say it's something which contributes to our sin, something which will be replaced when Christ comes again, I agree with that.

As far as I understand your post above, I agree with it. I think the key thing is for us to be won by the love of Jesus Christ. Our motivation should be Christ. As Paul said, "For me to live is Christ."

well the way i understand it is that our mind can be transformed in the here and now, while we have to wait for our new perfect bodies.

the understanding i was handed from the church, for whatever reasons, (personally i think it was mindless regurgitation of the "facts" as understood) was that we would struggle with sin our whole life.

for example, a person has sins a-z, 26 sins, depending on ones alphabet. so that person, even tho they were able to stop actually doing sins b, g, w, x, would still be struggling to not do those sins the rest of their life, in addition to trying to not do the other sins or do what they are supposed to. then if they were able to stop some of the other sins they had those to struggle with on top of the first four, all day, every day.

not a happy existence to say the least.

but i learned, accidently by experience, that our God delivers us from all desire for each and every sin, that there is no more desire, no more struggle. the temptation comes on occasion but it is so mild as to be almost inconsequential. actually i would have to say another "voice pops up and tells it to go away".

now i have gotten to the point where i wonder what it would be like to be "sinless", or to have zero sinful desires. having no desire for those previous sins i found so attractive and seeing how it was bondage, something else controlling me regardless of what i wanted, it is truly freedom indeed!!

You describe two different types of Christians above. The first group experience sinless perfection in spite of their sinful flesh nature; whereas, the second group do not experience sinless perfection because of their sinful flesh nature.

What do you think accounts for the difference between the two groups? Why do the first group experience sinless perfection but not the second group?

I had no idea you believe such a thing. Please elaborate. At point in the process of conversion does a born-again believer reach this state?