Mike

You made this statement, "God cannot forgive us until we repent and forsake our sins."

We read in Luke 23:34 "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

Jesus teaches us in Matthew 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:45 "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust."

God forgives but it is up to us to receive the forgiveness by asking to be forgivin.

We are in jail, God has a pardon in his hand all we have to do is to reach out and take it from Him.

Repentance is a necessary pre-condition of forgiveness.

Luke 13:3
"Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Luke 17:3
"Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."

Luke 24:
46 "Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

Acts 5:31
"Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

Acts 8:22
"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."

1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

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"For eighteen centuries this work of ministration continued in the first apartment of the sanctuary. The blood of Christ, pleaded in behalf of penitent believers, secured their pardon and acceptance with the Father, yet their sins still remained upon the books of record."
{GC 421.2}

"Does God turn from justice in showing mercy to the sinner? -- No; God can never dishonor His law by suffering it to be transgressed with impunity. Under the new covenant, perfect obedience is the condition of life. If the sinner repents, and confesses his sin, he will find pardon. Forgiveness is secured for him by Christ's sacrifice in his behalf. Christ has paid the demands of the law for every repentant, believing sinner."
{ST 06-28-05 para. 4}

There are always conditions to God's promises. There is this excellent passage to consider, though, lest we make an error about repentance:

"Just here is a point on which many may err, and hence they fail of receiving the help that Christ desires to give them. They think that they cannot come to Christ unless they first repent, and that repentance prepares for the forgiveness of their sins. It is true that repentance does precede the forgiveness of sins; for it is only the broken and contrite heart that will feel the need of a Saviour. But must the sinner wait till he has repented before he can come to Jesus? Is repentance to be made an obstacle between the sinner and the Saviour?
{SC 26.1}

"The Bible does not teach that the sinner must repent before he can heed the invitation of Christ, 'Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.' Matthew 11:28. It is the virtue that goes forth from Christ, that leads to genuine repentance. Peter made the matter clear in his statement to the Israelites when he said, 'Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.' Acts 5:31. We can no more repent without the Spirit of Christ to awaken the conscience than we can be pardoned without Christ."
{SC 26.2}

John, it is clear that Jesus suffered drinking the cup of trembling, and that His suffering was for all mankind, not just those who are saved. The question is, Did Jesus die the second death? or did He consume and conquer it? This is one of the many places where the sanctuary service is helpful. On the day of atonement, it was the scapegoat that died in the wilderness, which symbolizes the second death.

Edison, I agree with John. By living and dying the perfect life and death, Jesus made forgiveness and salvation possible and available. But He cannot and will not forgive and save us against our will and desire. But He does offer it to us, with strong incentives and passionate appeals. Jesus bought this prerogative with His blood.

Mark, many people have falsely accused people, such as Graham Maxwell and his students, of having given up the substitutionary sacrificial aspects of the atonement. Maybe some trying to explain it may not have given a good picture, but they have not given it up. Therefore I suspect that there are a lot less people who have given it up than you think.

Now it is seen in a different way, due to seeing the "penality" of sin not being imposed but inherent in the nature of sin. There is a big difference between the penality of driving 60 miles an hour on a freeway in a state that keeps a 55 mile limit and you are stoped and have to pay for a trafic ticket, to the pennalty of driving over a hundred miles an hour and loosing control of the car and crashing it and getting killed by the car crash, yet both could be called the pennality of speeding.

I have used illustrations to try to compare and contrast these new attempts with the Forensic and Moral Influence view. Of course not all illustrations are perfect, but I do think these three get the point across:

1. Forensic view: You have committed a crime. You go to court, are found guilty and sentenced to die, but another in exicuted in your place.

2. Moral Influence view: You are traped in a burning building. Someone feels sorry for you and goes into the building and burns in front of you to show you how horrible it is to be burned so that you would want to get out of the building (of course it does not address the fact that you are traped).

3. These new proposals: You have fallen off a cliff with rocky ground below you. But a sheep passes by and you land on the sheep battered and brused, but the sheep broke your fall, and the impact of your fall killed the sheep.

The traditional criticism of the third view says that if you do not have an imposed pennality that you must not believe in a substitutionary death. But just because the illustration in view 3 does not have the same type of substitution as found in group 1 does not mean that they don't believe in a substitutionary death. (and I hope that you see that view 2 does not have a substitutionary componant.)

Mark, what does the death of Christ accomplish? That's really the quesiton we're asking, isn't it?

I'm sure whatever answer I give will fall short -- it would have to. But I'll share some thoughts.

First of all I'd like to assert, so there's no misunderstanding, that I believe in the substitionary atonement of Christ. Christ died in my stead. Had Christ not died for me, my eternal death (assuming I was alive in the first place) would be inevitable. Christ took what was mine by rights, death, in order that I might have what was His by rights, eternal life.

The death of Christ saved the world. The Spirit of Prophesy says that! Christ is the Savior of the world, which John points out in several places, among them being John 4:42.

The Spirit of Prophesy points out that to the death of Christ we owe even our earthly lives. She has other quotes which bring out the same truth.

quote:

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He took in His grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside as his lawful territory, and by His wonderful work in giving His life, He restored the whole race of men to favor with God.(1SM 343)

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quote:

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To the death of Christ we owe even this earthly life. The bread we eat is the purchase of His broken body. The water we drink is bought by His spilled blood. Never one, saint or sinner, eats his daily food, but he is nourished by the body and the blood of Christ. (DA 660)

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The fullest treatment of this theme in the Spirit of Prophesy is found in FW 21, 22, which is why I've repeatedly referenced it. It's a bit long to quote in whole, so I'll quote just a small portion, but I strongly recommend reading the whole section:

quote:

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Man broke God's law, and through the Redeemer new and fresh promises were made on a different basis. All blessings must come through a Mediator. Now every member of the human family is given wholly into the hands of Christ, and whatever we possess--whether it is the gift of money, of houses, of lands, of reasoning powers, of physical strength, of intellectual talents--in this present life, and the blessings of the future life, are placed in our possession as God's treasures to be faithfully expended for the benefit of man. Every gift is stamped with the cross and bears the image and superscription of Jesus Christ. All things come of God. From the smallest benefits up to the largest blessing, all flow through the one Channel--a superhuman mediation sprinkled with the blood that is of value beyond estimate because it was the life of God in His Son. (FW 22)

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In the Scriptures the following deal with this same theme: Rom. 5:18; 2 Cor. 5:14,19,20; 1 John 2:2; Rom. 3:23, 24; Isa. 44:22; 1 Tim. 4:10

The above Scriptures and quotes from the Spirit of Prophesy deal with what Christ's death accomplished from a legal standpoing. Again, the FW section on pages 21 and 22 is the best explanation I've seen on this anywhere.

So far this has been dealing with the legal aspects of the cross. The legal aspect has not impact on my character in and of itself. It is only as I perceive something that I am impacted. Here again, I'm going to quote from the Spirit of Prophesy, as the following quote eloquently expresses my thought:

quote:

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How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175, 176)

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Tom: Mike, I might snip some of your quotes to keep the post from being too long. I tried not to lose anything vital to your thought. I'm certainly not trying to give a different impression in any way to what you think. Please repost anything you deem important that I may have left out.

Mike: Tom, I believe Jesus tasted, consumed and conquered our sin and second death on the cross, before He voluntarily laid down His life.

Tom: Saying that Christ voluntarily laid down His life is certainly true, as Christ was God the Self-Existant One. It would only be possible for Christ to die voluntarily. However, Christ was also fully human, and as such He could and did die. He died of a broken heart, the evidence of which is in the Scripture and Spirit of Prophesy texts I provided previously (Ps. 22; Ps. 69; DA "Calvary")

Mike: [snip] Jesus is an example for the saved, not the unsaved. [snip]

Tom: Evidence?

Mike: How does the blood of Jesus, the substitutionary death of Jesus, make forgiveness and salvation possible and available?

Since the penalty for sinning is punishment and destruction in the lake of fire, since the law demands the punishment and destruction of sinners in the lake of fire,

Tom: The wages of sin is death. Christ died our death in order that we might live. To sin, whereever it is found, God is a consuming fire. Christ experienced the second death. (Heb. 2:9) That death involved being burned by fire, but God did not zap Him with a ball of fire. The fire was the meeting of a just and holy God with sin. The wicked die because they cut themselves off from God, resulting in their death.

What I'm writing is directly stated from the Spirit of Prophesy, the evidence of which I've produced many times.

Mike: since the law cannot be ignored, placated or appeased, since the law cannot forgive sinners,

Tom: Of course the law cannot forgive sinners. The law isn't alive.

Mike: and since God is a law abiding citizen, it was necessary and required that Jesus taste the second death on our behalf.

Tom: The reason Christ's death was necessary was to reconcile us with God. It is all about us, not about God. God is already perfect. He needs no changing.

Mike: Nothing but punishment and death can satisfy the just and holy demands of the law.

Tom: You keep speaking of the law as if it were a living entity. What we're really speaking of is God. The law can't do anything. God does everything.

Mike: Death by itself is not enough. If it were, then there would be no need for the second resurrection. Sinners must also be punished for refusing to abide in Jesus. Why? I don't know.

Tom: Well, I was going to ask why, but since you've already said you don't know I won't bother. The reason you don't know why is that your view is completely arbitrary. You don't know why because, according to your way of viewing things, there is no reason why. I appreciate your honesty here.

Mike: But I do know death is the only way to eradicate the sin problem, the only way to rid the universe of the presence and existence of sin. The equation is simple - No sinners, no sin. We can either die to sin, or die with sin. The choice is ours.

Tom: The chapter "It Is Finished" explains the issues clearly. Sin cannot be destroyed by force. First of all, force is not a principle of God's government. Love and truth are the principles of God's government, and this is the means by which God will destroy sin. This is all laid out in the chapter "It Is Finished."

Sin can only be destroyed by a demonstration of the truth. If sin could be destroyed by force, God could have destroyed Satan immediately. But that would not have destroyed sin, as the Spirit of Prophesy makes clear.

This issue is of vital imporance. We must understand that it is truth and not force that destroys sin.

Mike: When we die to sin, the law credits the death of Jesus to our account. It also takes into consideration the fact Satan will someday die our second death, with our sins, in the lake of fire.

Tom: Again, you're speaking of the law as if it were alive. Try to formulate your thoughts using the word "law" as little as possible. The law cannot credit, it cannot "take into consideration" or do anything that a living being can do. We're concerned about what God can and will do. Let's speak about Him. It will make things clearer.

Mike: [snip] But just exactly how does Jesus' victory over our second death, and Satan's death in the lake of fire, satisfy the just and holy demands of the law? [snip] I do not believe it is possible to answer this question. I do not believe it is possible to explain how and why Jesus’ experience on the cross, why His death and resurrection and mediation, satisfies the holy and just requirements of the law.

Tom: I appreciate your honesty Mike, but it is possible to answer these questions, and what's more it's vital that we understand the issues involved and know how to answer them.

Mark, I've already answered the substitutionary atonement question. Regarding the sancturary, I I think you're making a false dichotomy by asking if a thing is real or a metaphor. These two attributes are not antithetical. For example, Christ is the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. This is a metaphor, yet it is also real.

Your question is probably better phrased simply, "Do you believe the heavenly sanctuary is real?" To this question my answer is I believe it is real.

Kevin, none of the views you outlined take into consideration the fact Jesus offered to die for us before Adam and Eve were created, before they sinned. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, which existed before Adam and Eve were created. I believe the Godhead agreed among Themselves, before the first free moral agent was created, that Jesus would become a human to live and die to redeem us from the death penalty. I also believe this decision is the basis upon which They chose to go ahead and create free moral agents anyhow, knowing they would sin, and that many of them would have to be punished and destroyed in the lake of fire.

The illustration that makes the most sense to me, the one that best helps to explain to me the substitutionary aspect of Jesus' life and death, and how it realtes to the law of sin and death, is, of course, the sanctuary.

Tom, yes, of course, Jesus died of a broken heart, but not until after He consumed the cup, that is, conquered the second death. This distinction, I believe, makes all the difference in the world. The evidence Jesus’ experience on the cross is an example of the 144,000 is, to me, obvious and empirical. Both Jesus and the 144,000 experience drinking “the” cup of trembling and being baptized with “the” baptism, and by comparing these experiences it is evident, to me, that they are too similar to assume they have nothing in common. See GC 632-634.

Matthew
20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Isaiah
51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, [and] wrung [them] out.
51:18 [There is] none to guide her among all the sons [whom] she hath brought forth; neither [is there any] that taketh her by the hand of all the sons [that] she hath brought up.
51:19 These two [things] are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee?
51:20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the LORD, the rebuke of thy God.
51:21 Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine:
51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God [that] pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, [even] the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:
51:23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

The reason why Jesus did not perish in hellfire and brimstone, when He drained the dregs of the cup, is because Satan is the one who must die in the lake of fire with our sins and second death. The scapegoat and the sanctuary make this clear. Jesus earned the right to own our sins and second death when, on the cross, He cried, It is finished. That’s why when Jesus walked out of Joseph’s tomb our sins and second death did not remain behind, buried forever. Our sins and second death are at this moment quarantined, within the blood of Jesus, in the heavenly sanctuary, where they are awaiting eradication in the lake of fire, upon the head of Satan.

Personifying the law is not an unusual way to address this issue. Please consider the following passages:

FW 100
Righteousness is obedience to the law. The law demands righteousness, and this the sinner owes to the law; but he is incapable of rendering it. The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. {FW 101.1}

HP 15
Jesus suffered the extreme penalty of the law for our transgression, and justice was fully satisfied. The law is not abrogated; it has not lost one jot of its force. Instead, it stands forth in holy dignity, Christ's death on the cross testifying to its immutability. Its demands have been met, its authority maintained. {HP 15.3}

LHU 158
Were the law understood apart from Christ, it would have a crushing power upon sinful men, blotting the sinner out of existence. But by understanding the law in connection with Christ, receiving Him by faith as his substitute and surety, man sees himself as a prisoner of hope. The truth as it is in Jesus is an acquaintance with the holy, just, and good law of God, as this law is elevated, and its immutability demonstrated, in Christ. He magnified the law, expanded its every precept, and in His obedience left man an example, that he also may meet its demands. {LHU 158.2}

I believe the heart of our disagreement as to why Jesus had to taste and consume our sins and second death on the cross is because we do not agree on the punishment aspect of the second death. You seem to believe eternal death is merely the consequences of sinning, of being separated from God, and not that it is considered a form of punishment. You believe you understand why the life and death of Jesus fully satisfied the holy and just demands of the law, and yet you deny the penalty and punishment phase of justice and retribution. Death, in all reality, is freedom from the punishment, not the punishment itself. Again, please hear what the prophet wrote about it:

GC 539, 540
God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that "the wages of sin is death," that every violation of God's law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father's face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression. {GC 539.3}