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Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119263
09/16/09 03:25 AM
09/16/09 03:25 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,607
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Is that what you think the quote means?

I asked you first. Is that what YOU think the quote means? But you seem reluctant to answer. Please just get it over with and answer Yes or No, so we can move on.

It should not take more than 3 posts, including this one, to settle it. Say Yes, and we're done with it. Say No, and I ask the opposite to confirm, and you confirm.

Let's try it again:
Quote:
So you believe that, to this day, Satan still DOES NOT know that he is wrong and God is right. Correct?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: the great controversy [Re: asygo] #119539
09/20/09 03:33 PM
09/20/09 03:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Arnold, I would answer your question by saying, Yes. Satan is insane. He truly thinks he will win the great controversy. He truly thinks God is wrong and that he is right.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119540
09/20/09 03:40 PM
09/20/09 03:40 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The law of God is the focus of the GC. If Satan can discredit the law he can exonerate himself.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119548
09/20/09 06:37 PM
09/20/09 06:37 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
God's character is the focus of the GC.

Quote:
He (Lucifer/Satan) sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. (DA 21, 22)


Satan deceived man and angels by misrepresenting God's character. His arguments regarding the law were a means to this end. There are important arguments regarding the law, but we shouldn't be distracted from the true focus of the GC, which is God Himself.

Quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119554
09/20/09 08:39 PM
09/20/09 08:39 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Arnold, I would answer your question by saying, Yes. Satan is insane. He truly thinks he will win the great controversy. He truly thinks God is wrong and that he is right.

I beg to differ, Mike. Ellen White says clearly that before his final decision he understood that God was right and that he was in the wrong. He knows he is wrong, but he has no option now except to go ahead with the great controversy.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119555
09/20/09 08:51 PM
09/20/09 08:51 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Satan deceived man and angels by misrepresenting God's character. His arguments regarding the law were a means to this end. There are important arguments regarding the law, but we shouldn't be distracted from the true focus of the GC, which is God Himself.

I disagree. There is more to it than that.

"'Thou shalt have no other gods before me.' Lucifer disputed the justice of this requirement in heaven, and thought its existence altogether unnecessary. ... He who knows the end from the beginning, had his laws and commandments before the world was created, and Satan chose to question his claims before the angels of heaven, because the law set forth the Omnipotent as the only true and living God, and forbade the worship of any other being. The authority of God was backed up by the requirements of his law, which was to hold jurisdiction over all created intelligences. The will of God was to be recognized in his requirements and acknowledged as supreme in the heavenly universe. {ST, September 24, 1894 par. 1-3}

"His rebellion caused him [Satan] to be expelled from heaven. After he rebelled, in order to save himself, he wished God to change his law; but God told Satan, before the whole heavenly host, that his law was unalterable. Satan knows that if he can cause others to violate God's law he is sure of them; for every transgressor of his law must die." {1SG 110.1}

Lucifer wished to be exalted to equality with God, but the first commandment prohibited this. So he rebelled against God by transgressing the first commandment. Then, in order to save himself (for every transgressor of God's law must die), he wished God to change His law.

So the law is at the heart of the great controversy.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119559
09/21/09 12:29 AM
09/21/09 12:29 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
T:Satan deceived man and angels by misrepresenting God's character. His arguments regarding the law were a means to this end. There are important arguments regarding the law, but we shouldn't be distracted from the true focus of the GC, which is God Himself.

R:I disagree. There is more to it than that.


I didn't say there wasn't more to it that this, but said we shouldn't be distracted from the true focus of the GC.

Quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.(ST 1/20/90)


The "whole purpose" of Christ's mission was the revelation of God.

If we look at Scripture, we can see this same theme. For example, from John:

Quote:
No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like. (John 1:18 CEV)


Throughout the Gospel of John we see the theme of God's being revealed by Jesus Christ appears over and over. For example:

Quote:
8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father. That is all we need."

9Jesus replied:

Philip, I have been with you for a long time. Don't you know who I am? If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. How can you ask me to show you the Father?(John 14:8,9 CEV)


In the Synoptic Gospel, the same theme appears, although couched in a different way, under the theme of the Kingdom of God.

Quote:
What Jesus was about had nothing to do with being religious. Read the Gospels! He partied with the worst of sinners and outraged the religious. This is what got him crucified.

What Jesus was about was starting a revolution. He called this revolution "the Kingdom of God."

This revolution isn't centered on getting people to believe particular religious beliefs and engage in particular religious behaviors, though these may be important, true, and helpful. Nor is it centered on trying to fix the world by advocating the "right" politiccal causes or advancing the "right" national agendas, though these may be noble, righteous, and effective.

No, the Kingdom of God that Jesus established is centered on one thing, and one thing only: manifesting the beauty of God's character. (The Myth of a Christian Religion by Greg Boyd)


If we consider Scripture, we can see the theme of Christ revealing God throughout. And even if we consider the accusations of Satan in regards to the law, it is the revelation of God's character which refutes these charges, so we are once again led to the true focus of the GC, which is God's character:

Quote:
Through the plan of salvation, a larger purpose is to be wrought out even than the salvation of man and the redemption of the earth. Through the revelation of the character of God in Christ, the beneficence of the divine government would be manifested before the universe, the charge of Satan refuted, the nature and result of sin made plain, and the perpetuity of the law fully demonstrated. (ST 2/13/93)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119566
09/21/09 01:10 PM
09/21/09 01:10 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Satan's first problem was with the law, because it prohibited him from doing what he wanted. Because of his hatred for the law, he hated God, Who had created the law and wasn't willing to change it. Now, as a a revenge, he attacks the law, for in this way he is not only seeking to depreciate the law itself but its Author. Those who don't see the importance of the law, like Boyd, cannot see this. His view is incomplete.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119567
09/21/09 01:47 PM
09/21/09 01:47 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Satan was envious of Christ and hated Him before he even knew the law existed.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119568
09/21/09 01:53 PM
09/21/09 01:53 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
That came afterwards. He began with a selfishness/vanity/pride problem. This led to envy. And yes, the angels knew the law, although it was not the object of their thoughts often as something they must fulfill.

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