Tom,

You still have not responded to my post, which was posted before you asked further questions on it. Please respond to it, after which I will consider responding to those questions.

If you have another interpretation on it, let's hear it. That's what this discussion is about.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What's the number of the post you're referring to? (that I didn't respond to).

Regarding my interpretation, I think the righteous will examine the evidence, and will agree with God's judgment. I don't think the penalty for sin is an arbitrary, or imposed, penalty, but the consequence of the choices made. As EGW puts it in DA 764:



I think the meting out process is one of a recognition of reality, not a creation of reality. Iow, the righteous recognize the true condition of the wicked, and agree with the conclusions God has come to, the primary one being why they weren't raised in the first resurrection.

There's no suggestion that the righteous will be involved in determining for how long a period of time the wicked should be set on fire.

She is clearly not saying the wicked will suffer emotional anguish for the same reasons Jesus did. The wicked are sin-hardened and, therefore, incapable of suffering emotional anguish ending in death.


Do you think one sin would have been enough to cause A&E to suffer emotional agony ending in death?


Yes. Do you agree He needed supernatural aid because His physical body could not survive the emotional agony of the sins of the world? Please elaborate.


Tom, it is this kind of answer that unnecessarily prolongs our discussions. Next time please address the obvious intent of this kind of question. Jesus was on the cross for 6 hours. Within that time frame He suffered for the sins of the world. It didn't require several days of suffering. Why not?


The fact A&E did not suffer emotional agony ending in death when they sinned is due to the fact God veiled the radiant fire light of His glorious presence. Conversely, it is the unveiled radiant fire light of God's glorious presence that will consume the flesh of sin-hardened sinners in the lake of fire at the end of time. There is nothing imposed about it. It is simply the natural result of sinful flesh being exposed to the unveiled radiant fire light of God's glorious presence.

In the case of Jesus on the cross, it required something supernatural to cause Him to suffer as if He committed the sins of the world. it could not happen naturally. In this sense He was inflicted with suffering. Suffering was imposed on Him. However, unlike the wicked at the end of time, Jesus' suffering did not end in death. Instead, He tasted and consumed sin and death. Then He laid down His life. He died the first death.

But you still haven't explained why you think the resurrected wicked will be able to physically survive suffering emotional agony for millions of sins without dying after revisiting their first sin in judgment. Please elaborate.

Then you agree it is hardly less objectionable.


I'm saying one sin was enough to cause A&E emotional agony ending in death. Do you agree? If not, why not?


God had to keep Jesus alive supernaturally so that He could physically survive suffering for the sins of the world. Why should it surprise you He must do the same for the wicked at the end of time? Otherwise, they would die prematurely, before suffering for all the sins they committed.


Actually, I disagree with the whole idea, namely, that the wicked will suffer emotional agony for each and every sin they committed eventually ending in death. However, if I did agree with it, I would say their emotional agony is inherent, not arbitrarily imposed or inflicted. Do you think the wicked will be physically able to suffer for the millions of sins they committed without supernatural aid to sustain them (like God had to with Jesus)? Please elaborate.

No. I disagree with your statement that "God must keep the wicked supernaturally alive so that they can suffer unimaginable emotional pain."



I would say that one sin was enough to cause A&E to die, and that that death would involve emotional agony.



How so?



Their sins cause their suffering and death. Why should God need to do something supernatural to enable this to happen?



Did I say this? No. I don't understand why you wish to change the wording of things which are said. Why not say things the way I said them, or quote me?



So we agree on this point (i.e., with the qualification you stated).



No, I think they'll die.

I think this theory of yours holds no merit. She says, "Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race" (therefore the anguish is the same). She then describes that anguish. She looks to be saying something diametrically opposed to what you are saying.



I would say that one sin was enough to cause A&E to die, and that that death would involve emotional agony.



If you are speaking of Gethsemane, I believe Christ would have died in Gethsemane had not God sent an angel to strengthen Him.



I addressed this in the next comment. Perhaps you should read through the entire post carefully before responding.



Why would radiant fire light cause emotional agony? That doesn't make sense. The passages in DA 107, 108 which speak of this describe the fire in terms of God's character. However, that God's character would do so makes perfect sense, as EGW explains in DA 108. The goodness of God's character makes clear the ugliness of our own, which causes mental and emotional distress.



Again, this doesn't agree with the thoughts expressed in DA 107, 108.



This is true. No imposed fire.



Again, not EGW's point in DA 107, 108 where she discusses this.



So this was imposed.



Ok, you're agreeing with my characterization of this. I disagree with your idea. Christ's sufferings were not artificially imposed, but were the natural consequence of His bearing our sin.



As EGW explains in the passage I've cited, Christ felt the anguish which the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race.



I don't think they'll survive. I think they'll die.

Well, it seems to me God “imposes” the judgment upon them – in the sense that they *have to* face their acts, although they would prefer not to face them.


More and graver sins mean more suffering, and this would hasten death, not delay it – since the death is caused by the suffering.


We know there will be external fire, but I’m not sure at which point it will act. Maybe after the internal fire has done its work. I used to think that they would act simultaneously, but I’m no longer sure about this.

“Against every evildoer God's law utters condemnation. He may disregard that voice, he may seek to drown its warning, but in vain. It follows him. It makes itself heard. It destroys his peace. If unheeded, it pursues him to the grave. It bears witness against him at the judgement. A quenchless fire, it consumes at last soul and body.” {Ed 144.5}

We read of chains of darkness for the transgressor of God's law. We read of the worm that dieth not, and of the fire that is not quenched. Thus is represented the experience of every one who has permitted himself to be grafted into the stock of Satan, who has cherished sinful attributes. When it is too late, he will see that sin is the transgression of God's law. He will realize that because of transgression, his soul is cut off from God, and that God's wrath abides on him. This is a fire unquenchable, and by it every unrepentant sinner will be destroyed. Satan strives constantly to lead men into sin, and he who is willing to be led, who refuses to forsake his sins, and despises forgiveness and grace, will suffer the result of his course. {ST, April 14, 1898 par. 13}

GC 541-543 says the judgment is for their own benefit, and God uses the principles of kindness, mercy and love. Not the usual way of thinking about this, is it? Certainly doesn't sound like setting someone on fire so they can experience excruciating pain.



Why do you think the death is caused by suffering?



Given the evidence, it doesn't make sense that God would set people on fire to make them suffer. For example, consider GC 541-543. This idea simply doesn't fit. Also DA 107, 108, and DA 764.

Also the entire revelation of Jesus Christ! Imagine, God setting people on fire to make them suffer. It boggles my mind that people, who claim to believe in Christ, have this idea about God.

Good. It is so nice of you to tell us how kind God will be toward those who land in hell. In fact, come to think of it, why should not those with tickets to this destination be quite content with their prize? There's certainly nothing to fear, right?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

They have no option as to whether to face the judgment, and God knows that the judgment will bring them terrible suffering.


It isn't? The mental suffering caused Jesus' death and Ellen White says clearly in the quotes I posted that the sense of condemnation, the sense of God's wrath against sin, will destroy both the soul and the body of the wicked. Besides, if they aren't going to die because of a literal fire, how are they going to die?


I wasn't thinking about people being set on fire by God, but more in terms of what MM said, that is, the fire being simply the natural result of sinful flesh being exposed to God's glory.