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Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119569
09/21/09 02:27 PM
09/21/09 02:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Arnold, I would answer your question by saying, Yes. Satan is insane. He truly thinks he will win the great controversy. He truly thinks God is wrong and that he is right.

I beg to differ, Mike. Ellen White says clearly that before his final decision he understood that God was right and that he was in the wrong. He knows he is wrong, but he has no option now except to go ahead with the great controversy.

True. But I was referring to his final moments. He will be filled with fiendish frenzy. He is truly insane. Ellen White wrote:

Quote:
Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.{GC 663.1}

Notwithstanding Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice, and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of Heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects, and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury, and arouse them to instant battle. {4SP 487.1}

Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119570
09/21/09 02:38 PM
09/21/09 02:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I totally agree with Rosangela. Lucifer thought things would be fine if the law was altered to allow him to on par with Jesus. His goal was to change the law. When it became obvious to him that God wasn't going to change the law, he turned his sights on God Himself. However, he knows he cannot turn anyone against God, so his focus continues to be the law. If he can discredit the law, he can reverse his death sentence. True, he can deceive sinners into hating God. But he cannot turn the righteous against God. The 144,000 will ultimately disprove Satan's claim that the law cannot be perfectly obeyed by FMAs. Then the GC will end.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119573
09/21/09 03:05 PM
09/21/09 03:05 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
As Mrs. White has made this issue abundantly clear, we need not spend undue time on it. I agree with Rosangela and with Mike. The Great Controversy is centered about the Law of God. Of course, since the law is a reflection of God's character, God's own honor is at stake. But the controversy that Satan has with God is over the fairness of the law, and whether or not it can truly be kept.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
From the very beginning of the great controversy in heaven it has been Satan's purpose to overthrow the law of God. It was to accomplish this that he entered upon his rebellion against the Creator, and though he was cast out of heaven he has continued the same warfare upon the earth. To deceive men, and thus lead them to transgress God's law, is the object which he has steadfastly pursued. Whether this be accomplished by casting aside the law altogether, or by rejecting one of its precepts, the result will be ultimately the same. He that offends "in one point," manifests contempt for the whole law; his influence and example are on the side of transgression; he becomes "guilty of all." James 2:10. {DD 28.2}
In seeking to cast contempt upon the divine statutes, Satan has perverted the doctrines of the Bible, and errors have thus become incorporated into the faith of thousands who profess to believe the Scriptures. The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God. Upon this battle we are now entering--a battle between the laws of men and the precepts of Jehovah, between the religion of the Bible and the religion of fable and tradition. {DD 28.3}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119584
09/21/09 06:15 PM
09/21/09 06:15 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Satan was envious of Christ and hated Him before he even knew the law existed.

R:That came afterwards. He began with a selfishness/vanity/pride problem. This led to envy.


Your idea is that Lucifer had no problem whatsoever with Christ until after he was shown the law?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119585
09/21/09 06:18 PM
09/21/09 06:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, I totally agree with Rosangela. Lucifer thought things would be fine if the law was altered to allow him to on par with Jesus. His goal was to change the law. When it became obvious to him that God wasn't going to change the law, he turned his sights on God Himself. However, he knows he cannot turn anyone against God, so his focus continues to be the law. If he can discredit the law, he can reverse his death sentence. True, he can deceive sinners into hating God. But he cannot turn the righteous against God. The 144,000 will ultimately disprove Satan's claim that the law cannot be perfectly obeyed by FMAs. Then the GC will end.


This is what you really think? (Note the bold part especially).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119586
09/21/09 06:19 PM
09/21/09 06:19 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Can anyone here who thinks that the Great Controversy is not centered around God, but rather centered around the law, make an argument from Scripture to support this idea?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119601
09/22/09 12:37 AM
09/22/09 12:37 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Your idea is that Lucifer had no problem whatsoever with Christ until after he was shown the law?

The problem began with self-exaltation and ambition for power. This led to both a relational and a legal problem. But the fact that Lucifer coveted Christ's position had nothing to do with Christ's character.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119602
09/22/09 12:40 AM
09/22/09 12:40 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Can anyone here who thinks that the Great Controversy is not centered around God, but rather centered around the law, make an argument from Scripture to support this idea?

As I said, there is both a relational and a legal problem. What are the texts used to support the idea that the Great Controversy is centered around God?

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119606
09/22/09 01:53 AM
09/22/09 01:53 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
R:The problem began with self-exaltation and ambition for power. This led to both a relational and a legal problem. But the fact that Lucifer coveted Christ's position had nothing to do with Christ's character.


Satan, in order to win the homage of God's creatures, misrepresented His character:

Quote:
From the beginning it has been Satan’s studied plan to cause men to forget God, that he might secure them to himself. Hence he has sought to misrepresent the character of God, to lead men to cherish a false conception of Him. The Creator has been presented to their minds as clothed with the attributes of the prince of evil himself,–as arbitrary, severe, and unforgiving,–that He might be feared, shunned, and even hated by men. (Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 738)


In order to counteract the enemy, Jesus Christ came to reveal the truth about God:

Quote:
(God) was pictured as one who could take pleasure in the sufferings of his creatures. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes.

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,–to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,–the revelation of God to the world,–the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men. (The Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119607
09/22/09 01:59 AM
09/22/09 01:59 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
As I said, there is both a relational and a legal problem.


It's just one problem, with the same solution, which is Christ.

Quote:
What are the texts used to support the idea that the Great Controversy is centered around God?


Greg Boyd wrote 2 books on this subject, "Satan and the Problem of Evil" and "God at War" which deal with what he calls "The Warfare Worldview" which we, as SDA's, know better as "The Great Controversy." These two books encompass over 1,000 pages, with hundreds of Bible texts. The following presents a brief summary, which mentions some of the texts used.

http://www.gregboyd.org/category/essays/essays-spiritual-warfare/the-warfare-worldview/


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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