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Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119608
09/22/09 01:15 AM
09/22/09 01:15 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
Tom, I totally agree with Rosangela. Lucifer thought things would be fine if the law was altered to allow him to on par with Jesus. His goal was to change the law. When it became obvious to him that God wasn't going to change the law, he turned his sights on God Himself. However, he knows he cannot turn anyone against God, so his focus continues to be the law. If he can discredit the law, he can reverse his death sentence. True, he can deceive sinners into hating God. But he cannot turn the righteous against God. The 144,000 will ultimately disprove Satan's claim that the law cannot be perfectly obeyed by FMAs. Then the GC will end.


This is what you really think? (Note the bold part especially).

The bolded part is part of the underlined part. Yes, I really believe it.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119612
09/22/09 01:48 AM
09/22/09 01:48 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, two points. First of all, Satan can and does turn people against God. Secondly, even if it were true that he couldn't turn the righteous against God (this certainly isn't true; David, Samson, and Solomon immediately come to mind. Hezekiah is another one. Saul (the king) is another. There's a multitude of examples.), why would this imply he would focus on the law?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119629
09/22/09 01:58 PM
09/22/09 01:58 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Satan's goal is to discredit the law before the unfallen universe. This is his only hope. He knows he cannot turn them against God. The law continues to be the focus of the great controversy. To the very end the law will be the focus. The Sabbath-Sunday crisis is all about the law. Those who receive the mark of the beast believe they are fulfilling God's will. True, they are deceived; but they are deceived into believing they are honoring and glorying God. Once deceived, they do not believe they are willfully violating the law or rebelling against God. Through it all, it is Satan's goal to deceive them into violating the law - not hating God or rebelling against Him. The focus is the law.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119630
09/22/09 02:10 PM
09/22/09 02:10 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
MM, the law is not the focus, but God is.

Let's consider the teachings of Jesus Christ. Where did Jesus Christ say that He came in order to disprove Satan's lie that the law could not be kept? Or where did He couch His mission in terms of the law?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying these themes are not important. Satan will attempt to impersonate Christ, and the Sabbath is a key part of this. But the primary focus is not the law of God, but the God of the law.

It is because of Satan's attempt to make God look bad that he's made the arguments he had in regards to the law.

Anyway, back to Jesus Christ. According to the SOP, the "whole purpose" of His mission was "the revelation of God." And this is backed up by His words and deeds. In everything He said and did, we see Him revealing the Father.

In the Gospel of John, in particular, this theme is made clear. "No man has seen God at any time. His only Son, who knew Him best, has shown us what God is really like." "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." "I have manifest His glory." "I have declared His name." These all speak directly to this them. And we see, in His actions, the revelation of which He speaks. The kindness, generosity, humility, mercy, goodness and grace of the Father are all revealed in Christ. This was the theme of His message, and the underlying motivation of all He said and did. To reveal the Father. That was the work of Christ.

If one wishes to establish from Scripture that the focus of Scripture is God, this is easy to do. Or that the mission of Christ was to reveal the Father, this is also easy to do. But to establish from Scripture that the Great Controversy is centered around the law, as opposed to God; I would be interested in seeing an attempt to try to show this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119650
09/22/09 09:22 PM
09/22/09 09:22 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
R: Satan's first problem was with the law, because it prohibited him from doing what he wanted. Because of his hatred for the law, he hated God, Who had created the law and wasn't willing to change it. Now, as a a revenge, he attacks the law, for in this way he is not only seeking to depreciate the law itself but its Author. Those who don't see the importance of the law, like Boyd, cannot see this. His view is incomplete.

T: Satan was envious of Christ and hated Him before he even knew the law existed.

R: That came afterwards. He began with a selfishness/vanity/pride problem. This led to envy.

T: Your idea is that Lucifer had no problem whatsoever with Christ until after he was shown the law?

R: The problem began with self-exaltation and ambition for power. This led to both a relational and a legal problem. But the fact that Lucifer coveted Christ's position had nothing to do with Christ's character.

T: Satan, in order to win the homage of God's creatures, misrepresented His character

???
We were discussing Lucifer/Satan, not those to whom he may have misrepresented God's character. You said Satan's problem was a relational one. How so?


Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119651
09/22/09 09:28 PM
09/22/09 09:28 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I'm not following you, Rosangela. I've been saying the Great Controversy is primarily about God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119652
09/22/09 09:34 PM
09/22/09 09:34 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Let's consider the teachings of Jesus Christ. Where did Jesus Christ say that He came in order to disprove Satan's lie that the law could not be kept? Or where did He couch His mission in terms of the law?


What about, for instance, Matthew 5:17-19? "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119653
09/22/09 09:44 PM
09/22/09 09:44 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I'm not following you, Rosangela. I've been saying the Great Controversy is primarily about God.

Tom,

*I* am not following you. The Great Controversy is primarily about God's truth versus Satan's lies. Satan lied both about God's law/government and about His character.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119660
09/22/09 11:18 PM
09/22/09 11:18 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
I agree with this, that Satan lied about both. I've been saying that the Great Controversy is *primarily* about God. Not that it doesn't involve the law as well, but it's *primarily* about God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119661
09/22/09 11:36 PM
09/22/09 11:36 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:Let's consider the teachings of Jesus Christ. Where did Jesus Christ say that He came in order to disprove Satan's lie that the law could not be kept? Or where did He couch His mission in terms of the law?

R:What about, for instance, Matthew 5:17-19? "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


This says nothing about Christ's coming to disprove Satan's accusations that the law couldn't be kept. I doubt you could find a single Commentary, even ours, which would suggest this is the meaning of this text.

To be clear, I'm not saying this isn't true (i.e., I'm not saying Christ didn't put the lie to Satan's accusations that the can't be kept. Indeed, you'll recall that I'm mentioned this as an argument that He took our sinful flesh.) What I'm saying is that Scripture is clear, and Christ is clear Himself, that the overriding purpose of His mission was the revelation of God, just as Ellen White states (she actually says "whole purpose" rather than "overriding purpose").

Satan caused man to fall by misrepresenting God's character. This is the secret to his power. In order to break this power, Christ came to reveal the truth about God.

What is God really like? That's the key to the Great Controversy, and the final message which will be given to prepare the way for Christ's coming:

Quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love. (COL 415)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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