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Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119719
09/24/09 01:29 PM
09/24/09 01:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
As an aside, I don't understand the motivation for the position that you're arguing. Why do you think it is better to view things as primarily a contest as to whether or not the law can or should be obeyed as opposed to what the true character of God is?

Ellen White wrote prolifically about it. Angels spoke tons about it. The law is the focus. The unfallen have no questions about God. They are perfectly secure in His love. Satan's tactic since the cross is to prove the law was abolished at the cross. His goal is to prevent the development of the 144,000 so that he can prove the fallen cannot obey the law. If he can discredit the law he can exonerate himself and avoid the death sentence. It's more about Satan saving his hide than it is about God disproving his accusations.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119723
09/24/09 06:35 PM
09/24/09 06:35 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
R:I'm not following you! Of course there are details supplied by Ellen White. What I understand you to be saying is that the aspect of the law in the Great Controversy cannot be proven from the Bible. And what I'm trying to tell you is that it can be proven from the Bible.


What I've been saying is that the Great Controversy is primarily about God. God is the most important thing, not His law! Christ came primarily to reveal God. This is the central theme of Scripture. It is easy to demonstrate from Scripture that Christ is the key, and that His purpose was to reveal the Father.

Quote:
R:What Satan said in heaven is not written in the Bible. Where is it written in the Bible that he misrepresented God's character in heaven?


Why do think I would care about this?

Quote:
In view of this, this question you keep asking does not make any sense to me:

My question was "Specifically, where in the Bible is the idea that Satan said in heaven that the law could not be kept?"


Because you made that, or appeared to me to be making it, a central piece of what you were asserting.

Your "in view of this" looks to be completely out of place.

Quote:
R:What I'm trying to say is that the strategy he used in heaven can only be inferred from the strategy he used on earth with Adam and Eve. That's why I said that here he 1) lied about God’s character, and 2) led man to disobey God. The two aspects are involved. But, as both can be only inferred in relation to heaven, not proved, then I conclude you wish to leave the "heaven" part outside of the discussion. Is this what you mean? If it isn't, I'm not following you.


What I'm saying is that the Great Controversy is primarily about God. I'm saying that the primary purpose (or "whole purpose" to use Ellen White's words) of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, and understanding God's character is what the Great Controversy is primarily about.

Quote:
In case heaven is left out, we begin with Adam and Eve, where, again, both aspects are involved - which leaves us where we started. There is no way you can leave the law outside of the great controversy and pretend that it can't be found in the Bible.


I have said that the law is involved. I have not said the law is not involved. My point has been that the Great Controversy is primarily about God's character.

Quote:
The great controversy on earth began when Satan distorted God's character and led man to disobey God's law. Disobedience is a key factor in the great controversy - there's no way around this. In fact, he just distorted God's character as a means to an end - lead man to disobey God.


He distorted God's character as a means to gain power, in order to exalt himself.

Quote:
That's why Ellen White said that the great controversy is primarily about the law, although God's character is also involved.


Where does Ellen White say, "the great controversy is primarily about the law, although God's character is also involved."?

Given that the whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God, how is what you are suggesting possible? Also, if what you are suggesting were true, you should be able to establish your position from Scripture. That is, demonstrate from Scripture that the Great Controversy is primarily about the law, although God's character is also involved.

On the other hand, I can easily demonstrate from Scripture that the purpose of Christ's earthly mission was the revelation of God. Indeed, everything Christ did at any time in all the Gospels can be understood in these terms, and should be, as revealing the Father. That's what Christ was all about.

Yes, the law is also important. It's important know that it can and should be kept. But the focus of the Scriptures is not the law but Christ. Christ is the way to the Father (and the context of this statement, in John 14, is that we come to the Father by means of Christ's revelation of Him).

John says that the law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Hebrews puts it this way:

Quote:
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son


which reminds me of the following:

Quote:
In the first verse of the third chapter of Hebrews we have an exhortation which comprehends all the injunctions given to the Christian. It is this: "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus." To do this as the Bible enjoins, to consider Christ continually and intelligently, just as He is, will transform one into a perfect Christian, for "by beholding we become changed."

Ministers of the gospel have an inspired warrant for keeping the theme, Christ, continually before the people and directing the attention of the people to Him alone. Paul said to the Corinthians, "I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified" (1 Cor. 2:2), and there is no reason to suppose that his preaching to the Corinthians was different in any respect from his preaching elsewhere. Indeed, he tells us that when God revealed His Son in him, it was that he might preach Him among the heathen (Gal. 1:15, 16), and his joy was that to him grace had been given to "preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ." Eph. 3:8.

But the fact that the apostles made Christ the burden of all their preaching is not our sole warrant for magnifying Him. His name is the only name under heaven given among men whereby we can be saved. Acts 4:12. Christ Himself declared that no man can come unto the Father but by Him. John 14:6. To Nicodemus He said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14, 15.

This "lifting up" of Jesus, while it has primary reference to His crucifixion, embraces more than the mere historical fact; it means that Christ must be "lifted up" by all who believe in Him, as the crucified Redeemer, whose grace and glory are sufficient to supply the world's greatest need; it means that He should be "lifted up" in all His exceeding loveliness and power as "God with us," that His Divine attractiveness may thus draw all unto Him.


(More later)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119724
09/24/09 06:57 PM
09/24/09 06:57 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
R: I think your interpretation is not based on the text. Rev. 12:10 speaks about Satan as an accuser, not as a murderer. It says that “the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.”
Where is it said in the Bible he had any sympathies with the angels in heaven?

T: "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)

R:Again, I'm not following you! Do you want to discuss this from the Bible or from the SOP? What I tried to point out to you was that you couldn't prove what you had just said from the Bible. Of course I knew Ellen White's passage.


Ok, so you mean Ellen White's interpretation cannot be proven from Scripture. In my opinion, her interpretation is correct, and makes more sense than yours. The issue involved was primarily one of character. John 12 speaks to the same theme.

Quote:
R: When He died on the cross He proved the law of God immutable, for if the law could have been changed or abolished to meet man’s needs, Christ would not have needed to die.
T: Where is this taught in Scripture?

R:???
All those who defend the penal substitution theory see (or should see) this in the Bible.
Galatians 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us
The curse of the law is the penalty of the law. If the law could be changed or abolished, there would be no penalty to be paid, no need for Christ to die.

T: You cut off my question off in the middle!

R:Again, I'm not following you!


What I meant was you cut off what I said, and made it appear as if I were asking something I wasn't really asking.

Here's what I asked:

Quote:
Where is this taught in Scripture? According to the SOP, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God. Wouldn't this purpose have remained to be accomplished, even if it weren't necessary to prove the law is immutable?


So I'm asking that even if it were not necessary for Christ to die to pay a penalty, wouldn't this purpose have remained?

Quote:
R:I just wished to show that it's possible to demonstrate from the Bible that when Christ died on the cross He proved God's law immutable.


You said:

Quote:
If the law could be changed or abolished, there would be no penalty to be paid, no need for Christ to die.


I took this to mean that if the law were not immutable, then there would be no need for Christ to die. This implied that this is the only reason for which Christ died, since if He didn't need to prove the law were immutable, He wouldn't have had to die. So I pointed out another reason for which He died, to demonstrate this wasn't the only reason for which He died.

Quote:
Of course it's easy to prove from the Bible the aspect of God's character. What I'm trying to do is to show you that the aspect of the law is also there - for those who are willing to see it.


I know it's also there. I've been saying it's also there. I've been saying that the *primary* focus of the Great Controversy is God's character. You've been asserting that it's not, that it's about the law. So I've been asking you to demonstrate your assertion from Scripture.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119725
09/24/09 07:46 PM
09/24/09 07:46 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MountainMan
T:As an aside, I don't understand the motivation for the position that you're arguing. Why do you think it is better to view things as primarily a contest as to whether or not the law can or should be obeyed as opposed to what the true character of God is?

MM:Ellen White wrote prolifically about it. Angels spoke tons about it. The law is the focus.


Ellen White wrote more about God than she did the law. And angels speak much more about God than the law. So, by this argument, God is the focus.

Quote:
The unfallen have no questions about God.


They don't have any questions about the law either. They *did* have questions about God, was well as about Satan. The questions was dealt with by Christ's revelation of God. This is what the Great Controversy is about.

Quote:
They are perfectly secure in His love. Satan's tactic since the cross is to prove the law was abolished at the cross.


That's been *a* tactic. Just one among many. This is only an issue for a small percentage of people. Most people have no knowledge, much less care, about these issues. But millions upon millions of people have questions about God.

Quote:
It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels.(GC 536)


Quote:
His goal is to prevent the development of the 144,000 so that he can prove the fallen cannot obey the law.


That's a goal. However, their primary purpose is the revelation of God's character:

Quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.(COL 415)


Quote:
Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel.(COL 69)


Quote:
MM:If he can discredit the law he can exonerate himself and avoid the death sentence.


His argument regarding the law was God related. That is, he has argued that God is unjust and severe for requiring obedience to the law. There are many examples from the SOP discussing this principle. Here's an interesting one:

Quote:
With all their minute and burdensome injunctions, it was an impossibility to keep the law. Those who desired to serve God, and who tried to observe the rabbinical precepts, toiled under a heavy burden. They could find no rest from the accusings of a troubled conscience. Thus Satan worked to discourage the people, to lower their conception of the character of God, and to bring the faith of Israel into contempt. He hoped to establish the claim put forth when he rebelled in heaven,--that the requirements of God were unjust, and could not be obeyed. Even Israel, he declared, did not keep the law.(DA 29)


Notice the "to lower their conception of God's character" comment.

Here's another one:

Quote:
It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law, and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God, so that they regard him with fear and hate, rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator... (GC 568)


Notice what Satan's "constant effort" is: "to misrepresent the character of God".

Quote:
It's more about Satan saving his hide than it is about God disproving his accusations.


Satan knows he's lost.

Quote:
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost. (DA 758)


When Satan is successful in misrepresenting God's character (i.e., successful in that people believe his misrepresentations), the law becomes a non-issue. If one fears/hates God, one can hardly keep the law. Consider the Pharisees. Apparently their concern was all about the law, but they hated and feared God, which is evident by their treatment of God in the flesh.

Interestingly, in 1888, the same thing happened. Ellen White comments that had Christ been physically present, He would have been treated in a similar manner as the Jews treated Him (i.e., had Him crucified). We had preached the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboa, and when messengers came who spoke of the matchless charms of Christ, they were treated as Christ was when the same thing happened about 2,000 years ago.

As aside, 2,000 years ago, Christ would have 9. We're getting close to the time when He went to the temple. In 21 years, it will be 2,000 years since He began His ministry. This doesn't have anything to do with our discussion. I'm just rambling. Kind of interesting to think about.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119730
09/25/09 01:38 AM
09/25/09 01:38 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
What I've been saying is that the Great Controversy is primarily about God. God is the most important thing, not His law! Christ came primarily to reveal God.

This is a false dichotomy. How can you separate what you are from what you do? How can a just person make an unjust moral law? How can a perfect person create a faulty moral law? How can an immutable person create a changeable moral law? If any doubt remained in relation to God’s law, Jesus’ revelation of God in any other aspect would avail nothing.

Quote:
I have said that the law is involved. I have not said the law is not involved. My point has been that the Great Controversy is primarily about God's character.

The law is a revelation of God’s character and Jesus was a revelation of God’s character, which means that Jesus was also a revelation of God’s law, or He revealed God’s character by living out the law.

Quote:
R: The great controversy on earth began when Satan distorted God's character and led man to disobey God's law. Disobedience is a key factor in the great controversy - there's no way around this. In fact, he just distorted God's character as a means to an end - lead man to disobey God.
T: He distorted God's character as a means to gain power, in order to exalt himself.

He had no means of gaining power except by getting adepts, allies or subjects. And he could only get this by leading creatures to disobey God. He distorted God’s character to these creatures in order to accomplish this purpose.

Quote:
Where does Ellen White say, "the great controversy is primarily about the law, although God's character is also involved."?

Well, she says that "from the first, the great controversy had been upon the law of God.” She speaks of “the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God,” and of “the controversy between Satan and the Prince of heaven in regard to the changeless character of that law.” When she speaks of the character of God in relation to the great controversy, she also mentions the law: “From the opening of the great controversy it has been Satan's purpose to misrepresent God's character, and to excite rebellion against His law.”

Quote:
Ok, so you mean Ellen White's interpretation cannot be proven from Scripture. In my opinion, her interpretation is correct, and makes more sense than yours.

She is adding details. You cannot prove it just from Rev. 12:10; perhaps if you add Col. 1:20, John 12:31, 32 and other texts you could try to prove it.
As to the interpretation I gave, it is supported by Ellen White.

“Christ on the cross, not only draws men to repentance toward God for the transgression of His law--for whom God pardons He first makes penitent—but Christ has satisfied justice; He has proffered Himself as an atonement. His gushing blood, His broken body, satisfy the claims of the broken law, and thus He bridges the gulf which sin has made. He suffered in the flesh that with His bruised and broken body He might cover the defenseless sinner. The victory gained at His death on Calvary broke forever the accusing power of Satan over the universe. (MS 50, 1900). {7BC 974.2}

Quote:
I took this to mean that if the law were not immutable, then there would be no need for Christ to die. This implied that this is the only reason for which Christ died, since if He didn't need to prove the law were immutable, He wouldn't have had to die.

Yes, if the law were not immutable, then there would be no need for Christ to die. Do you disagree with this?

Quote:
I know it's also there. I've been saying it's also there. I've been saying that the *primary* focus of the Great Controversy is God's character. You've been asserting that it's not, that it's about the law. So I've been asking you to demonstrate your assertion from Scripture.

I’ve already given you several passages. When Christ says that He came to reveal the Father, as I pointed out previously, He did so by living out the law. Being the embodiment of the law, Christ revealed in His life God’s character. Again, you are making a false dichotomy.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #119732
09/25/09 09:31 AM
09/25/09 09:31 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
This implied that this is the only reason for which Christ died, since if He didn't need to prove the law were immutable, He wouldn't have had to die.

I haven't had time to follow all of the discussion here yet, but just wanted to comment on this statement. The fact that something is required for one reason does not invalidate other reasons and suddenly make the first singular. Such would be a logical fallacy.

The same would be true about aspects of God. For instance, we are told that God is light. If I believe that God is light, does this exclude a belief that God is love, God is a consuming fire, God is one, God is life, etc.? Of course not.

Jesus came to die to fulfill the law. He came to die "as an atonement." But He also came to die to show us His love, and thereby attract us to Him. One cannot justly argue that any of these reasons, or any additional reasons we might add, are mutually exclusive.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Mountain Man] #119733
09/25/09 09:33 AM
09/25/09 09:33 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Ellen White wrote prolifically about it. Angels spoke tons about it. The law is the focus. The unfallen have no questions about God. They are perfectly secure in His love. Satan's tactic since the cross is to prove the law was abolished at the cross. His goal is to prevent the development of the 144,000 so that he can prove the fallen cannot obey the law. If he can discredit the law he can exonerate himself and avoid the death sentence. It's more about Satan saving his hide than it is about God disproving his accusations.

Agreed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Green Cochoa] #119735
09/25/09 10:48 AM
09/25/09 10:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Tom
Ellen White wrote more about God than she did the law. And angels speak much more about God than the law. So, by this argument, God is the focus.

This is another logical fallacy. If she wrote more about God than about the cross, does this mean the cross is not the focal point?

When it comes to the "Great Controversy," since the controversy is between God and Satan, of course both will be frequently mentioned. This does not negate the fact that Ellen White specifically pinpoints the central issue in this controversy to be the law.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
The last great conflict between truth and error is but the final struggle of the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God. Upon this battle we are now entering. {CC 210.5}

From the very beginning of the great controversy in heaven it has been Satan's purpose to overthrow the law of God. It was to accomplish this that he entered upon his rebellion against the Creator, and though he was cast out of heaven he has continued the same warfare upon the earth. To deceive men, and thus lead them to transgress God's law, is the object which he has steadfastly pursued. Whether this be accomplished by casting aside the law altogether, or by rejecting one of its precepts, the result will be ultimately the same. He that offends "in one point," manifests contempt for the whole law; his influence and example are on the side of transgression; he becomes "guilty of all." James 2:10. {DD 28.2}

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}

Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5}

The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings he has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare, "Just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints." {GC88 670.2}


In one sense, Tom, I can see where you are coming from in saying that Satan's controversy was with God Himself. This is true of course. However, the reason for the controversy was centered on the fairness of God's law. That is the specific complaint that Lucifer/Satan has always brought forward.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Green Cochoa] #119756
09/25/09 09:27 PM
09/25/09 09:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
T:What I've been saying is that the Great Controversy is primarily about God. God is the most important thing, not His law! Christ came primarily to reveal God.

R:This is a false dichotomy. How can you separate what you are from what you do?


I'm not doing this. I'm saying the Great Controversy is primarily about God. This does not separate anything.

Quote:
R:How can a just person make an unjust moral law?


Why would the fact that the Great Controversy is primarily about God imply that God would be making an unjust moral law?

Quote:
How can a perfect person create a faulty moral law?


Why would the fact that the Great Controversy is primarily about God imply that God would be creating a faulty moral law?

Quote:
How can an immutable person create a changeable moral law?


Why would the fact that the Great Controversy is primarily about God imply that God would be creating a changeable moral law?

Quote:
If any doubt remained in relation to God’s law, Jesus’ revelation of God in any other aspect would avail nothing.


Who at the time of Christ had doubts about God's law? The Jews? You think they had doubts as to whether the law was changeable? or unjust? This was a burning issue?

Or was a more pressing issue the misunderstandings they had about God's character?

Quote:
T:I have said that the law is involved. I have not said the law is not involved. My point has been that the Great Controversy is primarily about God's character.

R:The law is a revelation of God’s character and Jesus was a revelation of God’s character, which means that Jesus was also a revelation of God’s law, or He revealed God’s character by living out the law.


What I've been saying is that the Great Controversy is primarily about God. That the Great Controversy is primarily about God doesn't imply the negation of any of the things you mentioned.

Quote:
: The great controversy on earth began when Satan distorted God's character and led man to disobey God's law. Disobedience is a key factor in the great controversy - there's no way around this. In fact, he just distorted God's character as a means to an end - lead man to disobey God.
T: He distorted God's character as a means to gain power, in order to exalt himself.

R:He had no means of gaining power except by getting adepts, allies or subjects. And he could only get this by leading creatures to disobey God. He distorted God’s character to these creatures in order to accomplish this purpose.


What was his purpose? To exalt himself. How did he achieve this? By misrepresenting God's character.

Quote:
He (Lucifer) sought to gain control of heavenly beings, to draw them away from their Creator, and to win their homage to himself. Therefore he misrepresented God, attributing to Him the desire for self-exaltation. With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator. Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men. (DA 21, 22)


1.Lucifer wanted to win the homage of God's creatures to himself.
2.Therefore he misrepresented God.
3.With his own evil characteristics he sought to invest the loving Creator.
4.Thus he deceived angels. Thus he deceived men.

Quote:
T:Where does Ellen White say, "the great controversy is primarily about the law, although God's character is also involved."?

R:Well, she says that "from the first, the great controversy had been upon the law of God.” She speaks of “the long-standing controversy concerning the law of God,” and of “the controversy between Satan and the Prince of heaven in regard to the changeless character of that law.” When she speaks of the character of God in relation to the great controversy, she also mentions the law: “From the opening of the great controversy it has been Satan's purpose to misrepresent God's character, and to excite rebellion against His law.”


Where does she say that the GC is primarily about the law, although God's character is also involved? This is what you claimed she said.

Quote:
Be astonished, O heaven, and be everlastingly ashamed, O inhabitants of earth! With sorrow and indignation the angels heard the choice made by the people and the sentence passed upon Christ. But they could not interfere; for in the great controversy between good and evil, Satan must be given every opportunity to develop his true character, that the heavenly universe, and the race for whom Christ was giving His life, might see the righteousness of God's purposes. Those under the control of the enemy must be allowed to reveal the principles of his government.(The Review and Herald, September 7, 1897)


This summarizes things in a nutshell. There are two parties to the controversy, and each must reveal their principles and characters. God revealed His character, and the principles of His kingdom through Jesus Christ, most clearly seen by means of the cross. This is how He won the Great Controversy. Satan revealed his character and the principles of his kingdom as well, principally by means of how he treated Christ, also most clearly seen by means of the cross.

Quote:
She is adding details. You cannot prove it just from Rev. 12:10; perhaps if you add Col. 1:20, John 12:31, 32 and other texts you could try to prove it.
As to the interpretation I gave (to Rev. 12:10), it is supported by Ellen White.

“Christ on the cross, not only draws men to repentance toward God for the transgression of His law--for whom God pardons He first makes penitent—but Christ has satisfied justice; He has proffered Himself as an atonement. His gushing blood, His broken body, satisfy the claims of the broken law, and thus He bridges the gulf which sin has made. He suffered in the flesh that with His bruised and broken body He might cover the defenseless sinner. The victory gained at His death on Calvary broke forever the accusing power of Satan over the universe. (MS 50, 1900). {7BC 974.2}


Where is Rev. 12:10 discussed here?

Quote:
T:I took this to mean that if the law were not immutable, then there would be no need for Christ to die. This implied that this is the only reason for which Christ died, since if He didn't need to prove the law were immutable, He wouldn't have had to die.

R:Yes, if the law were not immutable, then there would be no need for Christ to die. Do you disagree with this?


I asked you the following question:

Quote:
According to the SOP, the whole purpose of Christ's mission was the revelation of God. Wouldn't this purpose have remained to be accomplished, even if it weren't necessary to prove the law is immutable?


Quote:
T:I know it's also there. I've been saying it's also there. I've been saying that the *primary* focus of the Great Controversy is God's character. You've been asserting that it's not, that it's about the law. So I've been asking you to demonstrate your assertion from Scripture.

R:I’ve already given you several passages. When Christ says that He came to reveal the Father, as I pointed out previously, He did so by living out the law. Being the embodiment of the law, Christ revealed in His life God’s character. Again, you are making a false dichotomy.


What you need to demonstrate, to provide evidence for your assertion, is that Christ said something to the effect that the primary focus of the Great Controversy is the law, as opposed to God's character, as this is what you are asserting. I don't understand how you can claim I'm making a false dichotomy when you say that the Great Controversy is primarily about the law as opposed to about God. How are you not making the same "false dichotomy" you claim I am?

Regarding Christ's revealing God's character by being obedient to the law, it's certainly true that in that Christ kept the law, He revealed God's character. But I recall your saying elsewhere that the law did not include certain elements, such as mercy and pardon. I suppose grace could be added to this as well. Didn't Christ also reveal these other aspects of God's character? In this case, Christ's obedience to the law would be a subset of what He revealed in regards to God's character, wouldn't it?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #119758
09/25/09 09:49 PM
09/25/09 09:49 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
MM:Ellen White wrote prolifically about it. Angels spoke tons about it. The law is the focus. The unfallen have no questions about God. They are perfectly secure in His love. Satan's tactic since the cross is to prove the law was abolished at the cross. His goal is to prevent the development of the 144,000 so that he can prove the fallen cannot obey the law. If he can discredit the law he can exonerate himself and avoid the death sentence. It's more about Satan saving his hide than it is about God disproving his accusations.

T:Ellen White wrote more about God than she did the law. And angels speak much more about God than the law. So, by this argument, God is the focus.

GC:This is another logical fallacy.


This is MM's logical fallacy. I was pointing out the fallacy.

Quote:
GC:If she wrote more about God than about the cross, does this mean the cross is not the focal point?


Again, this isn't my argument. I asked this question:

Quote:
As an aside, I don't understand the motivation for the position that you're arguing. Why do you think it is better to view things as primarily a contest as to whether or not the law can or should be obeyed as opposed to what the true character of God is?


MM answered as above, that Ellen White wrote a lot about the law, etc. So I pointed out that if this is the reason why one should think the Great Controversy is primarily about the law, as opposed to being about God, the fact that Ellen White wrote more about God than the law doesn't work for the argument MM put forth.

Quote:
When it comes to the "Great Controversy," since the controversy is between God and Satan, of course both will be frequently mentioned. This does not negate the fact that Ellen White specifically pinpoints the central issue in this controversy to be the law.


The Great Controversy is a controversy involving two principles. One of the principles is Satan, the other Christ (or, one could phrase it as between Satan and God, but Christ is God's representative, so it works either way). Let's consider the following quote:

Quote:
Be astonished, O heaven, and be everlastingly ashamed, O inhabitants of earth! With sorrow and indignation the angels heard the choice made by the people and the sentence passed upon Christ. But they could not interfere; for in the great controversy between good and evil, Satan must be given every opportunity to develop his true character, that the heavenly universe, and the race for whom Christ was giving His life, might see the righteousness of God's purposes. Those under the control of the enemy must be allowed to reveal the principles of his government.(The Review and Herald, September 7, 1897)


The parable of the wheat and the tares comes to mind. Satan claimed that God's character and government were deficient. Satan claimed that he had a better way; that his character and his principles of government were superior to God's. Now it's clear that the law is involved in this, as the law of God is the law of His government, but it's only a part of the picture. The whole picture involves Satan -- his character and government, vs. Christ (or God) -- His character and government.

Satan was given the opportunity to develop his government, so that its principles could be seen, as well as given the opportunity to reveal his character. At the cross the Great Controversy was won. Why? Because at the cross Satan's claims were shown to be false, and Satan's character was revealed to be a murderer, as Christ had claimed. Satan was revealed to be the one who was lying, and Christ vindicated God.

Quote:
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do,


I'm interrupting this statement with another one, to make clear what this phrase is speaking in reference to:

Quote:
Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God. In Christ was arrayed before men the paternal grace and the matchless perfections of the Father. In his prayer just before his crucifixion, he declared, "I have manifested thy name." "I have glorified thee on the earth; I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." When the object of his mission was attained,--the revelation of God to the world,--the Son of God announced that his work was accomplished, and that the character of the Father was made manifest to men.(ST 1/20/90)


The whole purpose of Christ's earthly mission was "the revelation of God." Given this was the whole purpose of His mission, it's difficult to conceive of how something else could be more important than this!

Please note that Christ's work, the work that he accomplished, is declared to be that of making manifest the character of God.

Going on with the other statement:

Quote:
and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. His right hand and His holy arm had gotten Him the victory. As a Conqueror He planted His banner on the eternal heights. Was there not joy among the angels? All heaven triumphed in the Saviour's victory. Satan was defeated, and knew that his kingdom was lost.

To the angels and the unfallen worlds the cry, "It is finished," had a deep significance. It was for them as well as for us that the great work of redemption had been accomplished. They with us share the fruits of Christ's victory.

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.


The battle was won. Why? Because the character of the principles had been clearly revealed. Christ finished His work of revealing the awesome beauty of God's character, and Satan revealed his own ugly character.

Quote:
Christ bowed His head and died, but He held fast His faith and His submission to God. "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings.(DA 761)


So this was it. The character of each of the principles had been revealed. The Great Controversy was won, as far as the unfallen beings were concerned. It still remains to be decided by human beings, as God's character is still unknown:

Quote:
It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth.

This is the work outlined by the prophet Isaiah in the words, "O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God! Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him; behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him." Isa. 40:9,10.

Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.(COL 415)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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