MM:Tom, it is clear in the Bible and the SOP that God has employed the withdraw and permit principle.

It also clear Jesus didn't employ it while here in the flesh.

And, God is not judged by the same standard we are.

NOTE: In both cases mentioned above it was God, not Satan, who caused death and destruction.

M: Tom, it is clear in the Bible and the SOP that God has employed the withdraw and permit principle.

T: It's clear that God is at times caused to removed His protection, if that's what you mean (e.g. GC 35).

M: It also clear Jesus didn't employ it while here in the flesh.

T: Right! it's not a principle that God, or Christ, employs.

M: And, God is not judged by the same standard we are.

T: What standard is God judged by?

M: NOTE: In both cases mentioned above it was God, not Satan, who caused death and destruction.

T: We've discussed the flood before. From Scripture, the SOP, and studies by creation scientists, we see that the flood was caused by waters which burst forth from the great depths into the atmosphere. These waters would have had to have been under tremendous pressure to do so. Therefore it is apparent that God permitted the pressure the water was already under to propel it into the atmosphere, which agrees with the principles EGW sets forth in GC 35-37.

Also, in order to properly construct a theology, we need to have a foundation set. That foundation is Jesus Christ. He is the corner stone. He is the light of the glory of God, the revealer of God's character. Before we can hope to understand Scripture, we need to know God. We know God through Jesus Christ. All that man know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ in the flesh, in His life and character.

M: Tom, it is clear in the Bible and the SOP that God has employed the withdraw and permit principle.

T: It's clear that God is at times caused to removed His protection, if that's what you mean (e.g. GC 35).

M:By leaving out the words "employed" and "permit" what are you suggesting?

M: It also clear Jesus didn't employ it while here in the flesh.

T: Right! it's not a principle that God, or Christ, employs.

M:To use your words, Jesus didn't remove His protection while here in the flesh. This doesn't jive with your theory.

Divine pity marked the countenance of the Son of God as He cast one lingering look upon the temple and then upon His hearers. In a voice choked by deep anguish of heart and bitter tears He exclaimed, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" This is the separation struggle. In the lamentation of Christ the very heart of God is pouring itself forth. It is the mysterious farewell of the long-suffering love of the Deity. (DA 620)

The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. (GC 35-36)

M: And, God is not judged by the same standard we are.

T: What standard is God judged by?

M:The quote I posted makes it clear. He drowned millions and burned thousands alive. We can't.

M:Your interpretation assumes nature is self-acting, that God did not employ the forces of nature to ensure it behaved the way it did without exceeding His established limits, that God simply stood aside and let nature do its thing.

M: Tom, it is clear in the Bible and the SOP that God has employed the withdraw and permit principle.

T: It's clear that God is at times caused to removed His protection, if that's what you mean (e.g. GC 35).

M: To use your words, Jesus didn't remove His protection while here in the flesh. This doesn't jive with your theory.

T: I've mentioned repeatedly that the Destruction of Jerusalem demonstrates this principle. Jesus said:

M: The quote I posted makes it clear. He drowned millions and burned thousands alive. We can't.

T: You said God isn't judged by the same standard we are. I'm asking by what standard God is judged. You haven't said.

Your interpretation assumes nature is self-acting, that God did not employ the forces of nature to ensure it behaved the way it did without exceeding His established limits, that God simply stood aside and let nature do its thing.

Ahh... Employ. Now I think I understand the difference. You mean employ as a warrior "employs" a sword. You are suggesting God "employs" nature as a weapon of mass destruction.

Why do you keep doing what Tom has asked you not to do?

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God. {PP 109.1}

Ahh... Employ. Now I think I understand the difference. You mean employ as a warrior "employs" a sword. You are suggesting God "employs" nature as a weapon of mass destruction.

Why do you keep doing what Tom has asked you not to do?

Kland, when you were born, did you ask God to protect you from the natural, inevitable effect of sinning (emotional agony ending in death)? Or, did He do it without your permission? Perhaps your parents gave God permission. If so, what about all the children of unbelieving parents? Does God force His protection on them?