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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#119734
09/25/09 11:45 AM
09/25/09 11:45 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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A:[Did I phrase it inaccurately? You phrased it awkwardly I'd say. If you're going to ask a yes/no question, I think it works better to have a clear, explicit thought, so one it's clear what precisely one is agreeing with. So I split up the sentence to make clear what it is I agreed with. A:Is it not the case that you believe that "to experience the results of the choices they have made" is equivalent to "such mental anguish that they will weep and gnash their teeth until they die again"? Isn't that terrible mental anguish the result of their choices? If one says that God raises up the lost so they can experience X, that implies, or, at a minimum, can be read as implying, that it is God's will that the wicked experience X. I don't believe this is the case. That is, God does not will that the wicked suffer. They will suffer, but not because God desires them to. A:Do you also agree that Satan has lived all of these years completely separated from God, and therefore has enjoyed no pleasure whatsoever? You're talking about since he left heaven? T:If the lost suffer as a result of the choices they have made, that's a much different issue to consider than if they suffer because someone sets them on fire.
A:But they suffer nothing during the thousand years. God, by His divine power, causes events that result in their suffering to the point of eternal death. Isn't that what you've been saying all along? No, I've been saying that the wicked suffer as a result of their own choices. T:I disagree that the wicked is made alive to suffer mental anguish.
A:Will not the wicked, every single one, suffer mental anguish? And are not the wicked, every single one, able to suffer such mental anguish because God raised them from the dead?
Once God makes one of the lost again, is there any hope that he can avoid the mental anguish? I don't think so. Therefore, by raising the lost from the dead, God is guaranteeing that the lost will suffer mental anguish to the point of eternal death. I disagree with this. The wicked guarantee that they suffer and die by the choices they make. In so doing, they act contrary to God's will. God asks, "Why will you die?" T:Also, why do you not think he is alive in a natural or normal way? Do you mean because he's been resurrected? Or did you have something else in mind?
A:The reason the wicked being alive is neither natural nor normal, is because he is alive while being separated from God. The natural, normal consequence of being separated from Life is death. Yet, there will be, and there are many now, who are separated from God, yet are not dead. One could say a similar thing in regards to anyone who has sinned. Anyone who has sinned, should be dead. However, I tried to make clear that in speaking of God's supernaturally keeping people alive who have been set on fire, I was not speaking of this, but speaking of His intervening is a specific profess, that of burning, in such a way that the fire does not consume matter normally, but in a way that prolongs suffering. The whole point of the fire looks to be to cause the maximum amount of suffering, for some reason, presumably to make the wicked pay for what they have done. A:Separation from God, the life Giver, causes death. But the lost will live long enough, some of them for many days, to suffer. You believe that, don't you? EGW says both these things, right? So yes, I believe these. I don't understand the "but." She didn't say something contradictory, did she? 1. Doesn't God want the sinner to experience the results of the choices he has made? Doesn't that cause lots of suffering? No. He would prefer to make them happy. (GC 541) 2. Doesn't God specifically raise the wicked from the dead, knowing the inevitable suffering to follow? Yes. 3. That's what God is going to do by raising the wicked from the dead, right? No, this is wrong. A:If He wanted to minimize suffering, He could easily leave them dead. There's other things involved than simply God's desire on this point. It's certainly true that God would prefer to minimize their suffering. T:I disagree with the whole concept that God wants anyone to suffer.
A:Then why will He raise the wicked dead? Suffering is inevitable at that point. I asked this question about 4 or 5 years ago, I think, which led to a topic (on another forum) which, to the best of my knowledge, is still going on, which is a long-winded way of saying this is a good question, but not one easily answered in a few words. However, I'll reiterate that God does not raise the wicked for the purpose of suffering. They suffer because of their own choices, choices which are contrary to God's will. T:I also think the idea that God would deliberately cause one to suffer for hours or days at a time by setting them on fire is barbarous and cruel beyond comprehension, and have no idea whatsoever how anyone who believes in Christ could have such a conception of God as to think He could possibly do such a thing.
A:Yet you believe that God would deliberately cause one to suffer for hours or days at a time by waking them from the dead, and having them experience mental anguish to the point of eternal death. Right? No, I don't believe this. A:Regarding GC's analysis of your position on sin, I wouldn't put it his way, but neither do I believe your way. It seems that you believe sin is bad, and will cause suffering and death, but not as much suffering as being burned. That's correct, if you're talking about literal fire. That is, I don't believe sin necessarily causes one to be set on fire. A:So, the martyrs who died on the stake will have suffered more than the eternally lost. I disagree. This isn't a fair comparison. God did not supernaturally act to prevent the fire from acting normally. Therefore their nerve endings were destroyed in the fire. So they didn't suffer even the smallest of percentages of what the wicked will supposedly be made to suffer. A:I think the suffering of the wicked will exceed any physical pain possible. Do you think God will suffer? How much, compared to the righteous? How about the righteous? Do you think they will suffer in the judgment as they watch their loved ones suffering and dying? Do you think they will suffer more or less than the wicked?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#119738
09/25/09 12:02 PM
09/25/09 12:02 PM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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So, the martyrs who died on the stake will have suffered more than the eternally lost. I disagree. This isn't a fair comparison. God did not supernaturally act to prevent the fire from acting normally. Therefore their nerve endings were destroyed in the fire. So they didn't suffer even the smallest of percentages of what the wicked will supposedly be made to suffer. I thought the comparison was fair. However, we can add some real "torture" to this list as well. Recall that Isaiah was sawn in two, many martyrs were first tormented with splinters under their nails, drawing up their bound arms being them until they broke, pulling them apart from limb to limb by horses, not to mention more modern forms like electric shock. Should the lost suffer less than these righteous? That's the basic question Arnold is presenting. Of course, you have presented the use of fire as being cruel to begin with. Would it matter to you how long it was utilized? Would two hours be acceptable/too long? Four hours? Six hours (the time Jesus was on the cross)? One day? Where do you draw the line? The point here is that you are not God to make those decisions. What you think may not be what God thinks. God knows what is just and fair. The watching universe will agree with Him. There will be no voices expressing shock that God would be so "cruel" in that day. On the contrary, many of the watching universe are shocked that He withheld His judgments so long, and extended mercy for so many thousand years--including many centuries past the Atonement where Christ had won the victory. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#119750
09/25/09 06:50 PM
09/25/09 06:50 PM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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GC:So, the martyrs who died on the stake will have suffered more than the eternally lost. I disagree.
T:This isn't a fair comparison. God did not supernaturally act to prevent the fire from acting normally. Therefore their nerve endings were destroyed in the fire. So they didn't suffer even the smallest of percentages of what the wicked will supposedly be made to suffer.
GC:I thought the comparison was fair. However, we can add some real "torture" to this list as well. Recall that Isaiah was sawn in two, many martyrs were first tormented with splinters under their nails, drawing up their bound arms being them until they broke, pulling them apart from limb to limb by horses, not to mention more modern forms like electric shock. Should the lost suffer less than these righteous? That's the basic question Arnold is presenting. First of all, would you agree that these things you are describing are properly termed torture? So aren't you asking if the lost should be tortured more than the righteous were? Ok, to your question, I think your whole way of thinking here is off. Two wrongs don't make a right. Because martyrs were made to suffer by Satanicly inspired people doesn't mean the lost should be made to suffer more. It's not a contest to see who can cause the most suffering. Surely God would win that context, but is this what God is about? Causing suffering? Secondly, these tortures you are mentioning, as bad as they are, could not begin to compare with the agony of being set on fire for hours at a time, with God's supernaturally intervening to make sure the people suffer. In the human organism are mechanisms to limit the amount of pain one can experience. Death is one of these! So simply by not permitting the person to die, God would be "winning" the suffering contest right there. Also, presumably, God would be preventing the nerve endings from being damaged, so the person could continue feeling pain. That's also not something that would have happened with the martyrs. But, again, to my way thinking this whole concept is twisted. The whole idea that the lost should be made to suffer more than the righteous martyrs is not a thought that Jesus Christ would even have, IMO. Of course, you have presented the use of fire as being cruel to begin with. Would it matter to you how long it was utilized? Would two hours be acceptable/too long? Four hours? Six hours (the time Jesus was on the cross)? One day? Where do you draw the line? Cruelty is Satanic. I would draw the line at any cruelty at all. The point here is that you are not God to make those decisions. What you think may not be what God thinks. God knows what is just and fair. What God thinks is what Jesus Christ revealed. I don't see any similarity in what Jesus Christ revealed and the concept of setting people on fire in order to make them suffer. When setting people on fire was suggested to Jesus Christ, He said "you know not what spirit you are of." The watching universe will agree with Him. There will be no voices expressing shock that God would be so "cruel" in that day. Agreed. God will not be cruel. He will exhibit the principles of "kindness, mercy and love," just as GC 542 speaks of. I don't see how setting people on fire for the purpose of causing them to suffer excruciating pain could be construed as "kindness." On the contrary, many of the watching universe are shocked that He withheld His judgments so long, and extended mercy for so many thousand years--including many centuries past the Atonement where Christ had won the victory. God's judgments are not setting people on fire for the purpose of making them suffer. Let me ask, where in the life of Jesus Christ do you find even the remotest hint that this formed a part of His character?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#119764
09/26/09 03:40 AM
09/26/09 03:40 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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M: BTW, you haven't explained how the wicked will be able to physically survive the unveiled presence of God long enough to pay for all their sins. What will prevent them from dying immediately rather than suffering for many hours or many days? T: I don't think this is looking at things in the right way, as I explained above. Consider the following: Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 542, 543) This tells us that heaven would be torture for the wicked. The judgment reveals reality to the wicked. They recognize this, and voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven. Before making this decision, there is suffering involved, in proportion to the light they have had and the sin they have committed, as reality is made clear to them. This insight does not explain how the wicked will be able to physically survive revisiting their first sin (not to mention millions more) in the unveiled presence of God without dying. What makes it possible for wicked sinners to survive in the unveiled presence of God for many days without dying? Are you avoiding addressing this point?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#119766
09/26/09 03:46 AM
09/26/09 03:46 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, I believe the wicked will suffer in proportion to their sin, and the light they've had. I don't think this is an imposed or arbitrary punishment, but the result of the judgment. That is, the revelation of the truth causes "weeping and gnashing of teeth." The wicked realize the sins they've committed, in their true bearing, as well as what they've lost. Those who have had greater light will realize this more clearly, and thus suffer more.
I think the intensity is a key point. It's not that God has some fires which are turned up hotter than for others, but the suffering varies in intensity according to the light a person has had. Why isn't this idea explained in the last chapter of GC? If you think it is, please quote it.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#119767
09/26/09 04:10 AM
09/26/09 04:10 AM
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SDA Charter Member Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, why do you think God will resurrect the wicked knowing they will suffer excruciating anguish in His unveiled presence? Why do you think He will expose them to His unveiled presence? Why doesn't He veil His presence so it doesn't cause them such excruciating anguish? And, why doesn't His unveiled presence cause them to die right away? How are they able to live and suffer intense agony for many days?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#119768
09/26/09 04:26 AM
09/26/09 04:26 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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First of all, would you agree that these things you are describing are properly termed torture? So aren't you asking if the lost should be tortured more than the righteous were?
Ok, to your question, I think your whole way of thinking here is off. Two wrongs don't make a right. Because martyrs were made to suffer by Satanicly inspired people doesn't mean the lost should be made to suffer more. 1) Yes, I believe the martyrs were tortured, and that the word "torture" properly fits what some of them received. 2) No, I am not asking if the lost should be tortured more than the righteous. It is not a situation of "two wrongs." This is where you are incorrect. It is a situation of recompense. Did the martyrs deserve the torturing they received? No. Will the wicked deserve their recompense? Yes. The difference is huge. One was wrong, while the other is right. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#119771
09/26/09 10:26 AM
09/26/09 10:26 AM
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SDA Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Cruelty is Satanic. I would draw the line at any cruelty at all. It's all a matter of terms. By using the incorrect terms, one may easily be arguing on the side of Satan, that God is a cruel tyrant for destroying the sinners. That has been Satan's complaint all along, because He chose to misrepresent the truth. Had there been not a particle of truth in what Satan said, he could not so easily have deceived so many. But he twisted some actual truth, and thus maligned God's law and character. Is God cruel? Of course not. Will He destroy sinners? He most assuredly will. Will He mete out justice in doing so? Of a certain, yes. Yet has He been merciful in delaying His judgments? Yes. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#119811
09/27/09 01:58 AM
09/27/09 01:58 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Not the labels, but that act themselves are what I'm referring to. For example, one could douse a person with gasoline, and set the person on fire, and take actions to keep the person alive, so he could suffer more, and label this as not being cruel or whatever, but the action itself speaks louder than the labels.
By the way, GC, I've asked you on multiple occasions, and don't recall ever getting an answer (my apologies if you did answer this, and I'm making you repeat it), but to you see any difference between your view and the one described by Ellen White in GC 536 other than the time element? If so, what's the difference?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#119812
09/27/09 02:26 AM
09/27/09 02:26 AM
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Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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T:First of all, would you agree that these things you are describing are properly termed torture? So aren't you asking if the lost should be tortured more than the righteous were?
Ok, to your question, I think your whole way of thinking here is off. Two wrongs don't make a right. Because martyrs were made to suffer by Satanicly inspired people doesn't mean the lost should be made to suffer more.
GC:1) Yes, I believe the martyrs were tortured, and that the word "torture" properly fits what some of them received.
2) No, I am not asking if the lost should be tortured more than the righteous. It sounded that way to me. You looked to me to be asking if it wasn't fair that the wicked suffer more imposed pain than the martyrs, and if you look up the definition of the word "torture," that's what it is. GC:It is not a situation of "two wrongs." This is where you are incorrect. I cannot conceive of how one, as a professed follower of Christ, could think that setting someone on fire for the purpose of making him suffer is not a wrong. It is a situation of recompense. Did the martyrs deserve the torturing they received? No. No, but the wicked do deserve theirs. So it's OK. I think this idea is 100% contrary to the teachings and character of Christ (and it doesn't matter what word one uses to describe the setting on fire of the wicked for the purpose of causing pain). Where do you see that Jesus Christ treated anyone even remotely in this way? Or that He suggested that such treatment was OK? GC:Will the wicked deserve their recompense? Yes.
The difference is huge. One was wrong, while the other is right. As if changing the labels one uses can change a thing from being wrong to being right. If we call it "recompense" instead of "torture," it's OK. The concept that God would purposely cause someone excruciating pain for the sole purpose of recompense is one I find completely foreign to the character of God and the teaching of Christ. I don't believe Christ revealed the Father to be such.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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