HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
Andrew, Trainor, ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield
1325 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,232
Posts196,193
Members1,325
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
asygo 28
Rick H 15
kland 15
November
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
Member Spotlight
asygo
asygo
California, USA
Posts: 5,635
Joined: February 2006
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
5 registered members (dedication, Kevin H, Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,162 guests, and 11 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
What caused Christ's death? #11973
11/29/04 04:26 AM
11/29/04 04:26 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If death is the punisment of sin (rather than the result), then did Christ die because God executed Him?

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." (Zech. 13:7)

How did God smite Christ?

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11974
11/29/04 05:12 AM
11/29/04 05:12 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Personally, I believe Jesus laid down His own life, but not until He accomplished His objectives, which He did before He died. No one killed Jesus. He laid down His own life. He tasted and consumed the second death on our behalf, and then He died the first death. He is now the lawful owner of our sins and second death. At the end of time, Satan will die with our second death, and with our sins, in the lake of fire.

John
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

DA 758
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. {DA 758.1}

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11975
12/01/04 10:36 PM
12/01/04 10:36 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What does it mean to say that Christ felt the brunt of God's wrath on the cross? What was God's role in the Sacrifice of Christ? How did He "smite the Shepherd?"

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11976
12/02/04 12:33 AM
12/02/04 12:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Since Jesus consumed and conquered the second death, and since Satan is the one who actually dies the second death, it makes more sense, to me, to study his death in order to understand what it's like to die the second death.

God treated Jesus as if He was guilty of committing every sin committed since the fall of Adam and Eve. Since He experienced this ordeal on the cross, 2000 years ago, we cannot accurately compare it to the second death, to the lake of fire.

The mental agony, the soul anguish Jesus suffered, is similar to what the unsaved will endure in the lake of fire as they burn in the flames according to their evil works. But there were no flames when Jesus died on the cross. So, the two cannot be compared.

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11977
12/02/04 04:44 AM
12/02/04 04:44 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Since we have a lot more information regarding Christ's death than Satan's (hundreds of times more at least), and since Christ's death has actually already happened, it makes a lot more sense to me to study Christ's death than Satan's. You wrote that God treated Christ as if He were guilty. Given that's true, that should tell us how God actually will treat the guilty, right?

So how did God treat Jesus?

quote:
The mental agony, the soul anguish Jesus suffered, is similar to what the unsaved will endure in the lake of fire as they burn in the flames according to their evil works. But there were no flames when Jesus died on the cross. So, the two cannot be compared.


Mike, your reasoning here looks circular to me here. DA 753 says,

quote:
But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.

Isn't the whole point of Christ's death to be a substitute for us? That is, Christ experienced the second death so we wouldn't have to? Isn't what EGW is describing here the second death?

Please note the part that states that the mental anguish Christ felt was so great He hardly felt His physical pain. And He was being crucified!

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11978
12/03/04 03:26 AM
12/03/04 03:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, the mental anguish and the physical pain endured by He who has and those who will suffer during the second death are radically different and distinguishable. Again, that’s the point. The type of physical pain, what causes it, isn’t the important part of the second death. The mental anguish is what makes the second death different from the first death. In some cases, people have suffered more physical pain during the first death than the physical pain that will be suffered during the second death. John, for example, suffered more physically in the hot bath of oil than Jesus did on the cross. And Peter suffered more physical pain than Jesus did because he was crucified upside down.

But nobody has or ever will suffer more mental anguish than Jesus did in Gethsemane or on the Cross. He endured the wages of sin for all the sins committed since the First Fall. The cup He drank was the bitterest possible. And yet, Jesus told the disciples they too would drink from the cup of trembling, that they too would be baptized with “the” baptism. I believe this will happen to the 144,000, during the investigative judgment of the living, and during the time of Jacob’s trouble. Like Jesus, they will endure the second death without the flames of the lake of fire. But the wicked, like Satan, will endure the second death in the midst of the flames of the lake of fire. Jesus’ experience with the second death is an example of the saved, and Satan’s is an example of the unsaved. Both the saved and the unsaved suffer mental anguish on account of their sins, but the one lives through it and the other dies because of it.

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11979
12/02/04 08:39 PM
12/02/04 08:39 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
All the saved experience/will experience the mental anguish that Jesus experienced? Why?

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11980
12/03/04 01:00 AM
12/03/04 01:00 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I believe the following passages indicate that the 144,000 will drink from the cup of trembling, like Jesus did, and overcome, like Jesus did. The wicked, however, will die when they drink the cup, like Satan will die.

Matthew
20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Isaiah
51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, [and] wrung [them] out.
51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God [that] pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, [even] the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:
51:23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

GC 633, 634
The time of trouble is a fearful ordeal for God's people; but it is the time for every true believer to look up, and by faith he may see the bow of promise encircling him.... {GC 633.1}

"Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of His people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of My fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: but I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over." Verses 21-23. {GC 633.3}

The eye of God, looking down the ages, was fixed upon the crisis which His people are to meet, when earthly powers shall be arrayed against them. {GC 634.1}

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11981
12/03/04 03:24 AM
12/03/04 03:24 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Both the saved and the unsaved suffer mental anguish on account of their sins, but the one lives through it and the other dies because of it.
So this statement was not meant to be referring to the saved in an unqualified way, correct?

I see the suffering of the 144,000 and Jesus as caused by two different factors. Do you?

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11982
12/03/04 04:38 AM
12/03/04 04:38 AM
L
liane  Offline
Deceased Member (July 2009)
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 302
Bishop, CA
From the Pen of Inspiration:

"The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government. It is unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. In order for man to be saved, and for the honor of the law to be maintained, it was necessary for the Son of God to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He died for us on Calvary. His death shows the wonderful love of God for man, and the immutability of His law." {1SM 239.4}

Maybe I also need to study about this more. I had always understood that because Jesus took our sins upon himself and became sin for us that He died the second death that we deserved.

Any thoughts?

Liane, the Zoo Mama

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
No mail in Canada?
by dedication. 11/20/24 05:53 PM
Fourth quarter, 2024, The Gospel of John
by asygo. 11/20/24 02:31 AM
The 2024 Election, the Hegelian Dialectic
by ProdigalOne. 11/15/24 08:26 PM
"The Lord's Day" and Ignatius
by dedication. 11/15/24 02:19 AM
The Doctrine of the Nicolaitans
by dedication. 11/14/24 04:00 PM
Will Trump be able to lead..
by dedication. 11/13/24 07:13 PM
Is Lying Ever Permitted?
by kland. 11/13/24 05:04 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 11/13/24 04:06 PM
Profiles Of Jesus In Zecharia
by dedication. 11/13/24 02:23 AM
Good and Evil of Higher Critical Bible Study
by dedication. 11/12/24 07:31 PM
The Great White Throne
by dedication. 11/12/24 06:39 PM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 11/08/24 04:32 PM
A god whom his fathers knew not..
by TruthinTypes. 11/05/24 12:19 AM
Understanding the Battle of Armageddon
by Rick H. 10/25/24 07:25 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by dedication. 11/20/24 02:28 PM
The Church is Suing the State of Maryland
by Rick H. 11/16/24 04:43 PM
Has the Catholic Church Changed?
by TheophilusOne. 11/16/24 08:53 AM
Understanding the 1,260-year Prophecy
by ProdigalOne. 11/15/24 11:10 PM
Dr Ben Carson: Church and State
by ProdigalOne. 11/15/24 10:43 PM
Dr Conrad Vine Banned
by Rick H. 11/15/24 06:11 AM
Understanding the 1290 & 1335 of Daniel 12?
by dedication. 11/05/24 03:16 PM
Private Schools
by dedication. 11/04/24 01:39 PM
The 1260 Year Prophecy & The Roman Catholic Church
by dedication. 10/22/24 01:32 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1