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What caused Christ's death? #11973
11/29/04 04:26 AM
11/29/04 04:26 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
If death is the punisment of sin (rather than the result), then did Christ die because God executed Him?

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." (Zech. 13:7)

How did God smite Christ?

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11974
11/29/04 05:12 AM
11/29/04 05:12 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Personally, I believe Jesus laid down His own life, but not until He accomplished His objectives, which He did before He died. No one killed Jesus. He laid down His own life. He tasted and consumed the second death on our behalf, and then He died the first death. He is now the lawful owner of our sins and second death. At the end of time, Satan will die with our second death, and with our sins, in the lake of fire.

John
10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

DA 758
Christ did not yield up His life till He had accomplished the work which He came to do, and with His parting breath He exclaimed, "It is finished." John 19:30. The battle had been won. {DA 758.1}

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11975
12/01/04 10:36 PM
12/01/04 10:36 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
What does it mean to say that Christ felt the brunt of God's wrath on the cross? What was God's role in the Sacrifice of Christ? How did He "smite the Shepherd?"

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11976
12/02/04 12:33 AM
12/02/04 12:33 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Since Jesus consumed and conquered the second death, and since Satan is the one who actually dies the second death, it makes more sense, to me, to study his death in order to understand what it's like to die the second death.

God treated Jesus as if He was guilty of committing every sin committed since the fall of Adam and Eve. Since He experienced this ordeal on the cross, 2000 years ago, we cannot accurately compare it to the second death, to the lake of fire.

The mental agony, the soul anguish Jesus suffered, is similar to what the unsaved will endure in the lake of fire as they burn in the flames according to their evil works. But there were no flames when Jesus died on the cross. So, the two cannot be compared.

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11977
12/02/04 04:44 AM
12/02/04 04:44 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Since we have a lot more information regarding Christ's death than Satan's (hundreds of times more at least), and since Christ's death has actually already happened, it makes a lot more sense to me to study Christ's death than Satan's. You wrote that God treated Christ as if He were guilty. Given that's true, that should tell us how God actually will treat the guilty, right?

So how did God treat Jesus?

quote:
The mental agony, the soul anguish Jesus suffered, is similar to what the unsaved will endure in the lake of fire as they burn in the flames according to their evil works. But there were no flames when Jesus died on the cross. So, the two cannot be compared.


Mike, your reasoning here looks circular to me here. DA 753 says,

quote:
But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt.

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God.

Isn't the whole point of Christ's death to be a substitute for us? That is, Christ experienced the second death so we wouldn't have to? Isn't what EGW is describing here the second death?

Please note the part that states that the mental anguish Christ felt was so great He hardly felt His physical pain. And He was being crucified!

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11978
12/03/04 03:26 AM
12/03/04 03:26 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Yes, the mental anguish and the physical pain endured by He who has and those who will suffer during the second death are radically different and distinguishable. Again, that’s the point. The type of physical pain, what causes it, isn’t the important part of the second death. The mental anguish is what makes the second death different from the first death. In some cases, people have suffered more physical pain during the first death than the physical pain that will be suffered during the second death. John, for example, suffered more physically in the hot bath of oil than Jesus did on the cross. And Peter suffered more physical pain than Jesus did because he was crucified upside down.

But nobody has or ever will suffer more mental anguish than Jesus did in Gethsemane or on the Cross. He endured the wages of sin for all the sins committed since the First Fall. The cup He drank was the bitterest possible. And yet, Jesus told the disciples they too would drink from the cup of trembling, that they too would be baptized with “the” baptism. I believe this will happen to the 144,000, during the investigative judgment of the living, and during the time of Jacob’s trouble. Like Jesus, they will endure the second death without the flames of the lake of fire. But the wicked, like Satan, will endure the second death in the midst of the flames of the lake of fire. Jesus’ experience with the second death is an example of the saved, and Satan’s is an example of the unsaved. Both the saved and the unsaved suffer mental anguish on account of their sins, but the one lives through it and the other dies because of it.

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11979
12/02/04 08:39 PM
12/02/04 08:39 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
All the saved experience/will experience the mental anguish that Jesus experienced? Why?

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11980
12/03/04 01:00 AM
12/03/04 01:00 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I believe the following passages indicate that the 144,000 will drink from the cup of trembling, like Jesus did, and overcome, like Jesus did. The wicked, however, will die when they drink the cup, like Satan will die.

Matthew
20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Isaiah
51:17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the LORD the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, [and] wrung [them] out.
51:22 Thus saith thy Lord the LORD, and thy God [that] pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, [even] the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:
51:23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.

GC 633, 634
The time of trouble is a fearful ordeal for God's people; but it is the time for every true believer to look up, and by faith he may see the bow of promise encircling him.... {GC 633.1}

"Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine: Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of His people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of My fury; thou shalt no more drink it again: but I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over." Verses 21-23. {GC 633.3}

The eye of God, looking down the ages, was fixed upon the crisis which His people are to meet, when earthly powers shall be arrayed against them. {GC 634.1}

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11981
12/03/04 03:24 AM
12/03/04 03:24 AM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
quote:
Both the saved and the unsaved suffer mental anguish on account of their sins, but the one lives through it and the other dies because of it.
So this statement was not meant to be referring to the saved in an unqualified way, correct?

I see the suffering of the 144,000 and Jesus as caused by two different factors. Do you?

Re: What caused Christ's death? #11982
12/03/04 04:38 AM
12/03/04 04:38 AM
L
liane  Offline
Deceased Member (July 2009)
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 302
Bishop, CA
From the Pen of Inspiration:

"The moral law was never a type or a shadow. It existed before man's creation, and will endure as long as God's throne remains. God could not change nor alter one precept of His law in order to save man; for the law is the foundation of His government. It is unchangeable, unalterable, infinite, and eternal. In order for man to be saved, and for the honor of the law to be maintained, it was necessary for the Son of God to offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin. He who knew no sin became sin for us. He died for us on Calvary. His death shows the wonderful love of God for man, and the immutability of His law." {1SM 239.4}

Maybe I also need to study about this more. I had always understood that because Jesus took our sins upon himself and became sin for us that He died the second death that we deserved.

Any thoughts?

Liane, the Zoo Mama

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