MM:This insight does not explain how the wicked will be able to physically survive revisiting their first sin (not to mention millions more) in the unveiled presence of God without dying. What makes it possible for wicked sinners to survive in the unveiled presence of God for many days without dying? Are you avoiding addressing this point?

Tom, why do you think God will resurrect the wicked knowing they will suffer excruciating anguish in His unveiled presence?

Why do you think He will expose them to His unveiled presence?

Why doesn't He veil His presence so it doesn't cause them such excruciating anguish?

And, why doesn't His unveiled presence cause them to die right away? How are they able to live and suffer intense agony for many days?

The concept that God would purposely cause someone excruciating pain for the sole purpose of recompense is one I find completely foreign to the character of God and the teaching of Christ. I don't believe Christ revealed the Father to be such.

Deuteronomy
32:35 To me [belongeth] vengeance, and recompense; their foot shall slide in [due] time: for the day of their calamity [is] at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left.
32:37 And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted,
32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, [and] drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, [and] be your protection.
32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.
32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.
32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.
32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people.

Isaiah
34:2 For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, [and] with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
34:8 For [it is] the day of the LORD's vengeance, [and] the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

Isaiah
59:17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance [for] clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.
59:18 According to [their] deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense.
59:19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

Lamentations
3:64 Render unto them a recompense, O LORD, according to the work of their hands.
3:65 Give them sorrow of heart, thy curse unto them.
3:66 Persecute and destroy them in anger from under the heavens of the LORD.

Ezekiel
7:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
7:2 Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land.
7:3 Now [is] the end [come] upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.
7:4 And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.

Ezekiel
22:20 [As] they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt [it]; so will I gather [you] in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave [you there], and melt you.
22:21 Yea, I will gather you, and blow upon you in the fire of my wrath, and ye shall be melted in the midst thereof.
22:22 As silver is melted in the midst of the furnace, so shall ye be melted in the midst thereof; and ye shall know that I the LORD have poured out my fury upon you.
...
22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

2 Thessalonians
1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Hebrews
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

By the way, GC, I've asked you on multiple occasions, and don't recall ever getting an answer (my apologies if you did answer this, and I'm making you repeat it), but to you see any difference between your view and the one described by Ellen White in GC 536 other than the time element? If so, what's the difference?

Numbers
35:16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death.
35:19 The revenger of blood himself shall slay the murderer: when he meeteth him, he shall slay him.
35:20 But if he thrust him of hatred, or hurl at him by laying of wait, that he die;
35:21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote [him] shall surely be put to death; [for] he [is] a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him.
35:22 But if he thrust him suddenly without enmity, or have cast upon him any thing without laying of wait,
35:23 Or with any stone, wherewith a man may die, seeing [him] not, and cast [it] upon him, that he die, and [was] not his enemy, neither sought his harm:
35:24 Then the congregation shall judge between the slayer and the revenger of blood according to these judgments:
35:25 And the congregation shall deliver the slayer out of the hand of the revenger of blood, and the congregation shall restore him to the city of his refuge, whither he was fled: and he shall abide in it unto the death of the high priest, which was anointed with the holy oil.

T:The concept that God would purposely cause someone excruciating pain for the sole purpose of recompense is one I find completely foreign to the character of God and the teaching of Christ. I don't believe Christ revealed the Father to be such.

GC:Am I to suppose you do not believe that Christ talked to Moses?

GC, do you not agree with the concept that Jesus Christ, in the flesh, came with the specific purpose of revealing the Father? And that this revelation full and complete?

You appear to be articulating, indirectly, the idea that Jesus Christ's revelation of the Father, while here in the flesh, was incomplete, and needs to be supplemented by other things. This correctly expresses your thought on this matter?

In Christ Jesus is a revelation of the glory of the Godhead. All that the human agent can know of God to the saving of the soul, is the measure of the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus, to which he can attain; for Christ is he who represents the Father. The most wonderful truth to be grasped by men is the truth, "Immanuel, God with us." Christ is the wisdom of God. He is the great "I AM" to the world. As we contemplate the glory of the divine character as revealed in Christ, we are led to exclaim, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" This wisdom is displayed in the love that reaches out for the recovery of lost and ruined man. {ST, December 12, 1895 par. 5}

In Christ Jesus is a revelation of the glory of the Godhead. All that the human agent can know of God to the saving of the soul, is the measure of the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus, to which he can attain; for Christ is He who represents the Father. The most wonderful truth to be grasped by men is the truth, "Immanuel, God with us." Christ is the wisdom of God. He is the great "I Am" to the world. As we contemplate the glory of the divine character as revealed in Christ, we are led to exclaim, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" This wisdom is displayed in the love that reaches out for the recovery of lost and ruined man. {ST, July 3, 1907 par. 5}

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. . . . {FLB 17.3}

Human talents and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless, and the fact will remain that man by searching cannot find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {MM 95.2}

(John 17:3.) Avoiding Guesswork in the Quest for God.--Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. But guesswork has proved itself to be guesswork. Man cannot by searching find out God. This problem has not been given to human beings. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in His Word and in the life of His Son, the great Teacher. {6BC 1079.9}

Christ's Revelation of God

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless, and the fact will remain that man by searching cannot find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {UL 323.3}

"'Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless, and the fact will remain that man by searching can not find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {PH095 40.1}

"Human talent and human conjecture have tried by searching to find out God. Many have trodden this pathway. The highest intellect may tax itself until it is wearied out, in conjectures regarding God, but the effort will be fruitless; and the fact will remain that man, by searching, can not find out God. This problem has not been given us to solve. All that man needs to know and can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son, the Great Teacher. As we learn more and more of what man is, of what we ourselves are, in God's sight, we shall fear and tremble before Him. {LLM 253.3}

Christ's Revelation of God

All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1}
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only-begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. {8T 286.2}

I think this second point is not a true difference, however, as I don't think any of those who hold the false view would view God's motive to be any different than yours. They would, along with you, say that God was simply recompensing the wicked for what they had done, and that He was righteous and just for so doing.

T:GC, do you not agree with the concept that Jesus Christ, in the flesh, came with the specific purpose of revealing the Father? And that this revelation full and complete?

You appear to be articulating, indirectly, the idea that Jesus Christ's revelation of the Father, while here in the flesh, was incomplete, and needs to be supplemented by other things. This correctly expresses your thought on this matter?

GC:Tom, in order to misrepresent my views, you must necessarily misrepresent those of Mrs. White upon whom I have partly based my views along with help from the Bible itself, which is also undermined in your false interpretation of Mrs. White.

I have tried to answer this false view of yours previously, but I shall here make a more thorough response, and hope that it can, if nothing more, settle the issue in your mind of where I stand on it.

If you hold rigidly to your view that Jesus' 4 BC - 31 AD lifetime on earth is the only relevant time portion in which the Father's character can have been revealed to man (i.e. "through the life and character of His Son"), then it follows that NO ONE BEFORE JESUS' TIME KNEW ANYTHING AT ALL ABOUT GOD.

GC:If no man has ever seen God, nor was revealed anything about God until Jesus came in the flesh, then no one in Old Testament times could have possibly known God. All the altars of Israel would have necessarily been to the "unknown God!" This is because they could not possibly know about God until Jesus came.

I hope you will forgive my forcefulness in making the above statements. I make them so, because I feel very strongly about the effects of this misunderstanding being allowed to continue and perpetuated.

It will eventually, if continued, erase the Old Testament, and write it off as irrelevant.

T:I think this second point is not a true difference, however, as I don't think any of those who hold the false view would view God's motive to be any different than yours. They would, along with you, say that God was simply recompensing the wicked for what they had done, and that He was righteous and just for so doing.

Tom,

Are you seeking to exasperate us by continually misrepresenting our view?

The false view of hell means God, who supposedly hates sin, perpetuates it for eternity!

It means those who supposedly are saints, enjoy hearing the shrieks of the wicked mingled with their songs of praise! for eternity!

None of us here is in that camp.

TE - When the wicked are resurrected, God will cast them into a lake of fire, something like molten lava, which He will keep them supernaturally alive to suffer by being scalded, or boiled, until they pay by physical suffering for each sin they have committed. The righteous who witness this will be rejoice to see this happen, even when it involves their children or other loved ones. Holy angels who witness the suffering of the wicked will rejoice. God will rejoice in the suffering of our loved ones.

MM - Correct. The lake of fire, though, is caused by Jesus raining down fire upon the unsaved sinners. They suffer in proportion to the sins they committed. They worse the sins the more severe the suffering. Some are suffer fewer stripes, others more - depending on their sinfulness. I cannot understand how we will rejoice with the angels, but the Bible and the SOP make it clear we will.

Those motives are foreign to us, just as they are to you.

If you do not see the clear distinction in motives presented by God Himself in His law of capital punishment as outlined in Numbers 35, perhaps re-reading it might help.

If you still do not see a distinction, it is futile to continue this discussion, as you will be incapable of comprehending, and will continue to malign our view the way Satan maligns God's character.

I am not saying, by the way, that my view is perfect. However, I am basing my view firmly upon Sacred Writ. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."

Your strategy in interpreting these events appears to be to ignore a large portion of scripture, and claim that the only valid points in the discussion will come from your preferred passage (namely the Gospels). I do not feel such a strategy is faithful to the Bible.

That Jesus Christ, in the flesh, revealed all that man can know of God does not mean that nothing could be known of God before Christ came, but rather that there is nothing which can be known of God which He did not reveal when He came.