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Re: It Is Finished
#11995
12/02/04 10:40 PM
12/02/04 10:40 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 634
New York
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quote:
why does He have to resurrect the wicked at the end of time? If sin naturally kills sinners, then why don't we die the moment we sin?Sin would have naturally caused us to die the moment we sinned.
Sounds like someone has not read "Why was Sin Permitted" and "The Orgin of Evil" in a long time...
The existance of created beings relies on their connection to God through a righteousness by faith relationship in the character of God, or the law of self sacrificing love. If you unplug from the only sourse of life, you no longer have life.
One of the three desciptions of Satan is that God cannot be both Just and Merciful, he has to be one or the other and since he is a crule arbatary tyrant, he must come down on the side of Justice and destroy sinners. Had God allowed the natural results to have happened at that time, to the other angels and beings on other planets it would look like Lucifer said that God was going to kill them if they disobeyed, and "poof" he's gone, it would have looked like God did kill him. This would have aroused fear in the other beings, and what is not of love is sin, thus they would have sepperated from the only source of life, and soon the universe would have distroyed themselves.
God had to keep him alive to show in slow motion the self distruction of sin, but they will eventually reach their climax, and it would have been seen by all that the only way to exist is through the righteousness by faith connection to God, and that some will choose to die rather than live with self renounsing love.
quote:
If you believe God is somehow overriding the natural consequences of sin, in order to give us time to embrace Jesus, then what about after the second resurrection? what is keeping them alive at that time? And what about the fallen angels? what is keeping them alive?
The issue is not only "Me and my personal salvation" but the beauty and character of God. Is God all he claims to be? Is righteousness by faith and self sacrificing love an imposed law to prevent us from evolving to become gods ourselves, or is God stating a natural fact about the relationship between creator and creature, a fact that we need to know and accept in order for us to exist. God wants both saved and lost understand, and freely choose whether they want to live in a universe with that law or the freedom to sepperate from the only source of life. Before the die the lost will say "Just and true are thy ways."
During the investigative judgment the unfallen worlds and angels get to review to make sure that they have all their questions answered. During the thousand years the redeemed will have all their questions answered, and at the end the lost will have all their questions answered.
quote:
If they die because God pulls the plug, then who is responsible for their death? [/QB]]
They die because they pull the plug. God no longer holds back the results of sin that only Jesus on the cross has born (and Jesus bore more the full result of every sin since he is the infinite God. The lost only have the finite weight of their sins, and Satan the finite weight of his sin and for his role in all sins) and allows them their choice. And who is responsible for their death? A oneness of themselves and God.
I don't have any problem with God being responsible for their death. That is NOT our dissagreement at all (Mike, what will it take for you to realize that we are in agreement on this point? Why do you keep wanting to argue where the argument isn't?) Where we dissagree is whether God does two different acts, one which is nice for the saved, and a second which is not so nice on the lost, or does God do one act to both the saved and the lost, which brings happiness to some and death to the others?
Don't forget the pain Jesus went through and how Mrs. White says that the pain of being sepperated from his father was so great that he barely felt the physical pain of the cross...The same with the lost if you were right-- the pain of loosing their deepest desire, Jesus, would be so intence that they would barely feel the pain of any litteral flame.
Jesus could have been the sacrificial death for us had he died in the garden. He goes to the cross for two reasons: First so that there is a public death of Jesus, so that people would indeed know that he died. Second so that Mrs. White could write that the pain of being sepperated from his Father was so intence that he barely felt the physical pain of the cross. Loosing Jesus is the worst that can happen, Why do you feel that this is not good enough for punnishment for the wicked and therefore you want God to add to this?
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Re: It Is Finished
#11996
12/02/04 11:07 PM
12/02/04 11:07 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
I don't have any problem with God being responsible for their death. That is NOT our dissagreement at all (Mike, what will it take for you to realize that we are in agreement on this point? Why do you keep wanting to argue where the argument isn't?)
In fairness to Mike, he may be arguing with me. I have a problem with stating the God is responsible for the death of the wicked. I think it's clear that they are responsbile for their own death.
quote:
A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. GC 543
Since as far as I can tell, I am in complete harmony with your position, I think our difference is likely to be semantical, but I have been saying that the wicked our responsible for their own death, so I just wanted to clarify that.
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Re: It Is Finished
#11997
12/02/04 11:23 PM
12/02/04 11:23 PM
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SDA
Active Member 2024
Senior Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 634
New York
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lowe:
Since you admit that we die the first death, because God forbids us to eat from the tree of life, then you should also be able to admit that God is responsible for us dying the first death. That’s why I keep bringing it up. How does it relate to the topic? You keep insisting that death is the natural consequence of sin, but this insight proves death is the result of not eating the fruit of life.
The tree of life was a literal tree, but also a poem symbolising our dependence upon God for life.
quote:
The only difference between the first and second deaths is that there is no resurrection after the second death.
Definetely NO!!! First of all Jesus expirenced the second death, NOT the first death, and he was resurected. Jesus fell dieing the second death in the garden, but due to him being faithful to God, the same power that was crushing him was also keeping him alive to suffer even more. All three members of the trinity bore sin, and allowed sin to sepperate them. Jesus wanted to be with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit and the Father wanted to be with Jesus, but out of love for us, they allowed sin to sepperate them and the death of Jesus comes from him taking upon himself the natural results of that sepperation.
quote:
God chooses to withdraw His miraculous life sustaining power, the power that prevents them from dying the moment they sin. There is, therefore, nothing natural about their lives or their deaths.
You are half right... God gives inanamate objects life. We do not naturally have life. If we choose to reject that miraclous life giving power we return to our natural state.
quote:
This insight disapproves the idea that they live or die based on whether or not God shields them from the glory of His brightness.
EEEKKK! NO! The plan of redemption is where we get our fullness of life by having a righteousness by faith connection to the unshielded glory of his brightness. Our miserable life here comes from being shielded while God heals our broken relationship. God does not shield anyone at the end from the glory of his brightness. It is what becomes heaven to some and hell to others.
quote:
Going back to what I’ve been saying all along, I believe the perfect life and death of Jesus bought us probationary time to accept or reject Him as our Saviour, that we die the first death because God is not allowing us to eat from the tree of life, that God does not have to override the natural consequences of sin and death in order for us to be alive, that He will punish and destroy sinners in the lake of fire, with literal flames, because they rejected Jesus and/or refused to comply with the conditions of salvation – to perfectly obey the law of God.
The above comments show why I dissagree with most of this last statement. However, the understanding of hell that I have shows how the law of God is connected. God's law is his character. We either come to a place where we choose this righteousness by faith connection with it's resulting self-sacrificing love being a natural law of the ONLY way life can flow through us.
The other view of hell has brought all kinds of loopholes to try to get us to let God let us into heaven. The pagans felt that they could appease god with all sorts of rituals and self harm. The Catholics had the sacrements so that even if you spent your life in the Mafia, through the sacraments God will let you into heaven and not send you to hell. They also sold indulgences where God would let you into heaven and not into hell. Popular Christianity has Jesus as the perfect legalist in my place, where his righteousness is a shield of lead cannot see through, and how people such as Dale Ratslaf (I'm sorry if I mispelled his name) has developed a theology where if you keep the Sabbath, well, then you are trusting in your own righteousness and not Christs, you are therefore not hiding behind Christ and God will thus see your righteousness, which is like filthy rags, and he will stop you from entering into heaven and send you to hell. This also raises questions about how God works with those who do not understand about Jesus, and often condems them.
With this view of hell, all these loopholes are done away with. God shows you all his love and those of us who have been responding to the Holy Spirit find it heaven to be with him and whosoever commith unto him he will in no wise cast out. God will continue to give us His miraculous life sustaining power of self sacrificing love through a righteousness by faith relationship with him. Or else we will not want to live with self sacrificing love, yes he is still our deepest desire, but we will still flee, refuse the righteousness by faith connection through with God gives us His miraculous life sustaining power, and we return to the natural results of an object that does not have life in and of ourselves, and refuses the only source of life.
"A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God." Great Controversy
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Re: It Is Finished
#11998
12/03/04 05:27 AM
12/03/04 05:27 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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God is the author of life. Therefore, God is the author of death. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh.
Job
27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;
Psalms
104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
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Re: It Is Finished
#11999
12/03/04 05:41 AM
12/03/04 05:41 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"I think it is obvious that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable...."
"God is the author of death."
These are dark statements, Mike, don't you think? What do you think these statements say about God?
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Re: It Is Finished
#12000
12/03/04 03:20 PM
12/03/04 03:20 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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What does it say about God? Well, I suppose it depends on what a person thinks about life and death, and who is in control. If Satan is in control, then life and death is meaningless. But if God is in control, then life and death is meaningful.
Life is inevitable, therefore death is inevitable. What happens between life and death is what determines the meaning of life and death. If Satan is in control, then life is meaningless. But if God is in control, then life and death is meaningful.
Life can be a bed of roses, a slice of paradise, but sometimes life can be a living hell, a slice of death. The loss of a loved one, a lingering illness, divorce, hunger, fire, flood, and all manner of trouble can make life less than lovely to live, very difficult and tedious, indeed.
We can be brave and hopeful, and faithfully hold our heads high, and glorify God in all we think, say and do, but in spite of everything, there comes a time when death is a sweet release, a friend to the weary. The prospect of living forever in a sinful world, in a sinful state, is too much to expect of the godly. "Give me liberty, or give me death."
What does death say about God? It says He is in control. That is good news to me, even though I'm nowhere near wanting to throw in the towel. Knowing that God is in control gives me peace of mind, and so I'm still willing and eager to fight the good fight of faith. So help me God. But if and when that time comes in my life, when I'm ready to rest from my labors, it is comforting to know that God is in comtrol, that He is the author of death, and the author of the first resurrection.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12001
12/05/04 04:14 AM
12/05/04 04:14 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Life is inevitable, therefore death is inevitable."
If this were true, then everyone would die, yet 99.99999% of God's creation will never die. It also implies that sin was inevitable, which is totally false. There is no reason for sin.
God is not the author of death. Satan is the author of death.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12002
12/05/04 03:57 PM
12/05/04 03:57 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Yes, sin was inevitable, because God foresaw it. However, this doesn't mean sin was necessary, not does it mean God forced anyone to sin.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12003
12/06/04 04:28 AM
12/06/04 04:28 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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"Inevitable" means "incapable of being avoided or prevented."
"Necessary" means "unavoidably determined by prior circumstances."
"I think it is obvious that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable." (Mike)
"Nothing is more plainly taught in
Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin." (GC 493)
I'm having trouble making sense of this. How can sin be "incapable of being avoided or prevented"; exist because God created "a situation where sin and death where sin and death was inevitable"; yet it was not "unavoidably determined by prior circumstances"; nor was God "responsible for the entrance of sin."
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Re: It Is Finished
#12004
12/05/04 07:06 PM
12/05/04 07:06 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Adam and Eve were not required to sin, nor did God force them to sin. Knowing that they would sin does not mean God made them sin. Sin was going to happen because God created beings that would choose to sin. When Jesus cried, It is finished, He drained the dregs of the cup of trembling, which was an intergal part of a plan that was formulated before the First Fall, because God knew man would sin and require a Redeemer.
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