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Re: the great controversy
[Re: Tom]
#119954
09/30/09 01:35 AM
09/30/09 01:35 AM
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5500+ Member
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
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As I have pointed out in the thread "The Atonement," Satan’s problem with God was directly related to the law God had made. Satan's problem was related to God as Ruler and Lawgiver, not as Father.
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: asygo]
#119960
09/30/09 05:24 AM
09/30/09 05:24 AM
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Active Member 2012
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E. Oregon, USA
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Did Satan misrepresent God's government because he hated God's character? Or did Satan misrepresent God's character because he hated God's government? Well said. There is always a principle behind a personality dispute of this nature, just like theological dispute, too. The law expresses not only the reality - which Tom wants to be representative of reality rather than establishing it, but expresses the working of reality. Law and character are equally significant, and relegating either to second place is wrong: they are mutually inclusive. Preaching the law without mentioning its maker and giver is as bad as preaching God's character as standing above the law of heaven, on which the divine mind and character functions. While it is just the way God is, that way of God was the initiate element of Lucifer's challenge, and Lucifer's wish to be equal with God's Son was contrary to the law of God and the nature of created things. Therefore the post I'm replying to here says it very well: the latter option being the right one.
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: Tom]
#119962
09/30/09 05:29 AM
09/30/09 05:29 AM
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E. Oregon, USA
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He was envious of Christ, and hated Him. He hated God's character, because He hated Him. The same thing could be said in regards to His law (or government; that is, Satan hated God's law, or character, or government, because he hated Him.) No, Tom: you fail to combine God's character and law as inseparable and yet distinct truths. He challenged God's law, and when that failed, he maligned his character for the sake of overthrowing his law and government: it's principle and reality working together, not one or the other. Your purely logical explanation shows you need plenty more than pure logic, so you miss the whole picture.
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: asygo]
#119963
09/30/09 05:49 AM
09/30/09 05:49 AM
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SDA
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Quebec
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Did Satan misrepresent God's government because he hated God's character? Or did Satan misrepresent God's character because he hated God's government? Yes, well posed Arnold. "And I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS...
Until this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of GOD...
It was the highest sin to rebel against the order and will of GOD." Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1, opening page. Caps in original. ______
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: gordonb1]
#119964
09/30/09 06:16 AM
09/30/09 06:16 AM
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Gordon, You may have an older EGW search which puts your search terms in caps. Those caps are not in the original. Here's a copy/paste from the EGW 2008 CD. Chapter I. - The Fall of Satan.
The Lord has shown me that Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Jesus Christ. His countenance was mild, expressive of happiness like the other angels. His forehead was high and broad, and showed great intelligence. His form was perfect. He had a noble, majestic bearing. And I saw that when God said to his Son, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man. He was filled with envy, jealousy and hatred. He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to God, and receive the highest honors. Until this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of God. {1SG 17.1}
It was the highest sin to rebel against the order and will of God. All heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies with a commanding angel at their head. All the angels were astir. Satan was insinuating against the government of God, ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit
18
to the authority of Jesus. Some of the angels sympathized with Satan in his rebellion, and others strongly contended for the honor and wisdom of God in giving authority to his Son. And there was contention with the angels. Satan and his affected ones, who were striving to reform the government of God, wished to look into his unsearchable wisdom to ascertain his purpose in exalting Jesus, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the Son of God, and all the angels were summoned to appear before the Father, to have their cases decided. And it was decided that Satan should be expelled from heaven, and that the angels, all who joined with Satan in the rebellion, should be turned out with him. Then there was war in heaven. Angels were engaged in the battle; Satan wished to conquer the Son of God, and those who were submissive to his will. But the good and true angels prevailed, and Satan, with his followers, was driven from heaven. {1SG 17.2} The key here is why was Lucifer jealous? "He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man," she says. There are additional clarifying statements from her pen that indicate why he was not consulted--because only the Godhead were permitted to commune in their special councils, such as the planning for earth's creation. The law forbade any created being from entering this council, and Lucifer was a created being. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#119987
10/01/09 02:36 AM
10/01/09 02:36 AM
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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No, Tom: you fail to combine God's character and law as inseparable and yet distinct truths. He challenged God's law, and when that failed, he maligned his character for the sake of overthrowing his law and government: it's principle and reality working together, not one or the other. Your purely logical explanation shows you need plenty more than pure logic, so you miss the whole picture. Lucifer didn't even know of the existence of the law when he started his fall.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#119996
10/01/09 05:19 AM
10/01/09 05:19 AM
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SDA
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Posts: 936
Quebec
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Gordon,
You may have an older EGW search which puts your search terms in caps. Those caps are not in the original. Here's a copy/paste from the EGW 2008 CD. Chapter I. - The Fall of Satan.
"And I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS...
Until this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of GOD...
It was the highest sin to rebel against the order and will of GOD."
Spiritual Gifts Vol. 1, opening page. Caps in original. Sorry Green, I'm a little old-fashioned. These caps are in the book - a photofacsimile reproduction of the original 1858 Great Controversy as published by James White - an exact replica re-issued by R&H in 1945, bound in black hardcover. The CDs don't seem very authentic, but thanks for letting me know. ______
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: gordonb1]
#119997
10/01/09 05:32 AM
10/01/09 05:32 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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Sorry Green, I'm a little old-fashioned.
These caps are in the book - a photofacsimile reproduction of the original 1858 Great Controversy as published by James White - an exact replica re-issued by R&H in 1945, bound in black hardcover.
The CDs don't seem very authentic, but thanks for letting me know. That's interesting, Gordon. I used to have a DOS-based EGW search that also put search terms in all-caps, so I have seen that phenomenon before, and had no awareness of the books you speak of. My apologies. I used to print out statements I had looked up on the search, and the printouts always came with the search words in all-caps. I stand corrected. But now I have a question: In that book, are the names for deity always capitalized? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120000
10/01/09 06:46 AM
10/01/09 06:46 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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Hi Green,
Apology and correction welcomed. You've highlighted a good reason for me using books. BTW, there are numerous early volumes which have been reproduced as photofacsimiles by R&H. All hardbound black with gold lettering:
• Spiritual Gifts Vols l-ll
• Spiritual Gifts Vols lll-lV
• Spirit of Prophecy Vols 1 to 4
• Sketches from the Life of Paul
More streamlined than the current Conflict Series and most pre-dating the five man revision committee of 1883.
Further, if you're seeking a publication timeline of EGW's works (reasonably accurate), these can be found on the inside cover of the Indexes to EGW's writings - originally 3 volumes.
________
Deity capitalized? I'll give a quick eyeball:
• THE LORD
• JESUS CHRIST
• GOD
• SON
• JESUS
• SON of GOD
• LORD
• FATHER
• BELOVED (describing Christ)
• SAVIOUR
• LAMB of GOD
• MESSIAH
That's the first three chapters Green. There may be a one or two exceptions where I see Jesus spelt w/o caps, but the rest of the book seems to follow suit. Also noticed PRINCE, HOLY ONE, JUST.
On pages 83,85,86, 88, Holy Spirit was spelt thus.
There appears to be an emphasis on SON of GOD (frequently repeated) throughout the book, juxtaposed with FATHER. It demonstrates that EGW portrayed the FATHER and SON as separate persons, and taught that Christ was God's Son before man's creation and before the fall of Satan. Just as you've shown in the quotation from Spiritual Gifts.
("And I saw that when GOD said to his SON, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of JESUS")
& etc.
_____
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Re: the great controversy
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#120002
10/01/09 07:00 AM
10/01/09 07:00 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2014
Veteran Member
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
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The key here is why was Lucifer jealous? "He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man," she says. Don't miss the fuller context shown below. Satan wanted to take Christ's place "...next to God, and receive the highest honors..." "He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to GOD, and receive the highest honors... Satan and his affected ones, who were striving to reform the government of GOD, wished to look into his unsearchable wisdom to ascertain his purpose in exalting JESUS, and endowing him with such unlimited power and command. They rebelled against the authority of the SON of GOD.." 1 Spiritual Gifts 17, 18. ______
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