M: Satan has no problem with love.

T: I'm curious. Does anyone else agree with this?

T: Do you mean, "Satan has no problem with agape"? (i.e., the self-sacrificing love of God, as opposed to what we commonly call "love," but really isn't).

M: Satan has no problem with any form of love. In his own sick way he believes he is demonstrating the ultimate form of love by insisting God modify the law according to his dictates.

T: Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved.

T: Jesus went beyond the law in so doing.

M: What did Jesus do that is not commanded in the law?

T: Go to the cross, to mention one thing. He did so voluntarily, not under duress. Becoming a human being is another thing He did.

M: Please is keep in mind that the law commands love.

T: It doesn't specify how this love should be manifest. The love of God wasn't fully known until Christ revealed it.

T: Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved.

M:This is impossible. Jesus could not be lost and sinners be saved.

T: Jesus went beyond the law in so doing.

M: What did Jesus do that is not commanded in the law?

T: Go to the cross, to mention one thing. He did so voluntarily, not under duress. Becoming a human being is another thing He did.

M:The law demanded the death of Jesus for God to earn the legal right to pardon and save sinners. For Jesus to refuse to pay our sin debt of death it would have proven God unloving. No, He wasn't forced to do it, but it is His nature to do so.

M: Please is keep in mind that the law commands love.

T: It doesn't specify how this love should be manifest. The love of God wasn't fully known until Christ revealed it.

M:The law specifies how love should be experienced, namely, in harmony with the character of God.

Also, as Rosangela pointed out, Lucifer knew the love of God fully before he sinned

T:Jesus Christ proved God is love by revealing His character. Jesus went beyond the law in so doing. ... Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved. The law says nothing about this. Christ revealed a love which is beyond comprehension, the self-sacrificing love of God, and in so doing demonstrated that truth of John's sublime declaration that "God is agape."

R: I agree the law says nothing about forgiveness, and that the gospel revealed a dimension of God's love not revealed by the law. However, that dimension was also related to the law, because it had to do with its penalty.

T: That is it "related" to the law is irrelevant. The salient point is that Christ fully revealed the Father's character, by making manifest His self-sacrificing love.... He revealed a height and depth and length and breadth of love which cannot be comprehended, much less described by a law.

R:By no means! It is totally relevant.

T:Christ went beyond what the law required, by risking His own life for our redemption.

R:I don't think this was the case.

The awful moment had come--that moment which was to decide the destiny of the world. The fate of humanity trembled in the balance. Christ might even now refuse to drink the cup apportioned to guilty man. It was not yet too late. He might wipe the bloody sweat from His brow, and leave man to perish in his iniquity. He might say, Let the transgressor receive the penalty of his sin, and I will go back to My Father. Will the Son of God drink the bitter cup of humiliation and agony? Will the innocent suffer the consequences of the curse of sin, to save the guilty? The words fall tremblingly from the pale lips of Jesus, "O My Father, if this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done."

Three times has He uttered that prayer. Three times has humanity shrunk from the last, crowning sacrifice. But now the history of the human race comes up before the world's Redeemer. He sees that the transgressors of the law, if left to themselves, must perish. He sees the helplessness of man. He sees the power of sin. The woes and lamentations of a doomed world rise before Him. He beholds its impending fate, and His decision is made. He will save man at any cost to Himself. He accepts His baptism of blood, that through Him perishing millions may gain everlasting life. He has left the courts of heaven, where all is purity, happiness, and glory, to save the one lost sheep, the one world that has fallen by transgression. And He will not turn from His mission. He will become the propitiation of a race that has willed to sin. His prayer now breathes only submission: "If this cup may not pass away from Me, except I drink it, Thy will be done." (DA 692, 693)

The amazing thing about God's love is that He was willing to sacrifice Himself, (or His Son, depending upon which perspective you want to look at it) for our salvation. The love itself that would lead to the sacrifice is the amazing thing. That one can see some relation to the law as prompting this if one looks at it in a certain way isn't relevant.

T:Christ went beyond what the law required, by risking His own life for our redemption.
R:I don't think this was the case.
T: DA 692, 693 quoted

T: Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved.

M: This is impossible. Jesus could not be lost and sinners be saved.

T: You misread what was written. What was written is correct.

T: Jesus went beyond the law in so doing.

M: What did Jesus do that is not commanded in the law?

T: Go to the cross, to mention one thing. He did so voluntarily, not under duress. Becoming a human being is another thing He did.

M: The law demanded the death of Jesus for God to earn the legal right to pardon and save sinners. For Jesus to refuse to pay our sin debt of death it would have proven God unloving. No, He wasn't forced to do it, but it is His nature to do so.

T: That it was His nature to do so goes along with the points I've been making. However, you asked what Jesus did which is not commanded by the law, so I gave a couple of examples.

M: Please is keep in mind that the law commands love.

T: It doesn't specify how this love should be manifest. The love of God wasn't fully known until Christ revealed it.

M: The law specifies how love should be experienced, namely, in harmony with the character of God.

T: Where?

M: Also, as Rosangela pointed out, Lucifer knew the love of God fully before he sinned, before Jesus wore sandals, as Arnold so cleverly put it.

T: So?

I'm curious. Does anyone else agree with this?

I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne; they did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne, trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne, and pray, "Father, give us Thy Spirit." Satan would then breathe upon them an unholy influence; in it there was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy, and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. {EW 56.1}

So?

T:The amazing thing about God's love is that He was willing to sacrifice Himself, (or His Son, depending upon which perspective you want to look at it) for our salvation. The love itself that would lead to the sacrifice is the amazing thing. That one can see some relation to the law as prompting this if one looks at it in a certain way isn't relevant.

R:If that was the case, God could just have forgiven man by forgetting his sin, without the payment of any penalty, and Christ could have died on the cross because of the physical effects of the crucifixion, just to prove that He loved man enough to die for him.

R:Then the cross would have nothing to do with forgiveness, just with love. Why didn't He do that? Or do you think this was what He did?

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely.(God is Love)

Tom, how does DA 692, 693 prove your point? If Christ had refused to drink the cup apportioned to guilty man, man couldn't have been forgiven and saved, Chirst wouldn't have done for man what the law required, and man would simply be lost. How does this prove that "Christ went beyond what the law required"?

T: Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved.

M: This is impossible. Jesus could not be lost and sinners be saved.

T: You misread what was written. What was written is correct.

M:In what sense do you think Jesus could be "lost" and sinners be saved?

T: That it was His nature to do so goes along with the points I've been making. However, you asked what Jesus did which is not commanded by the law, so I gave a couple of examples.

M:The examples you gave were required by law.

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)

M: Please is keep in mind that the law commands love.

T: It doesn't specify how this love should be manifest. The love of God wasn't fully known until Christ revealed it.

M: The law specifies how love should be experienced, namely, in harmony with the character of God.

T: Where?

M: Also, as Rosangela pointed out, Lucifer knew the love of God fully before he sinned

T: So?

M:You seem to think the love of God was not fully revealed until Jesus was here in the flesh. The fact is it was revealed 4,000 years earlier.

But even as a sinner, man was in a different position from that of Satan. Lucifer in heaven had sinned in the light of God's glory. To him as to no other created being was given a revelation of God's love. Understanding the character of God, knowing His goodness, Satan chose to follow his own selfish, independent will. This choice was final. There was no more that God could do to save him. But man was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 761, 762)