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Re: the great controversy [Re: gordonb1] #120084
10/04/09 03:08 PM
10/04/09 03:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: gordonb1
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Elle, there are many truths - one of them being that the law is the primary focus of the GC.


Mike, the center of the issue is Love, the fulfilling of the Law. (Romans 13:10)

The law is only a letter, a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. (Galations 3:24)

The law is dry like the hills of Gilboa if not fulfilled. Dry, Dry, Dried bones.

If we have only the law and not Christ, we will be lost.

God's Love is being challenged by Satan. This love is in Christ.

Whether or not love and law are inseparable is the question. Satan has no problem with love. His problem is with law. He believes love can be experienced under the auspices of a modified law, modified according to his dictates.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #120085
10/04/09 03:19 PM
10/04/09 03:19 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
R: Is the law a law of love? This is the central question of the great controversy.

T: Is God a God of love. That is the central question of the Great Controversy.

R: Is the law is a law of love? If so, then it's proven that God is a God of love. This is the central question of the Great Controversy.

Amen! God created a law of love. He loves us individually, therefore, He commands us to live in harmony with its all encompassing principles. He loves us corporately, therefore, He enforces the penalty of the law, namely, capital punishment. He loves sinners, therefore, He gave His only begotten Son to pay their sin debt of death, which gives God the legal right to pardon and save sinners.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #120088
10/04/09 04:00 PM
10/04/09 04:00 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Quote:
Is the law a law of love? This is the central question of the great controversy.

Is God a God of love. That is the central question of the Great Controversy.

Is the law is a law of love? If so, then it's proven that God is a God of love. This is the central question of the Great Controversy.


Jesus Christ proved God is love by revealing His character. Jesus went beyond the law in so doing.

Quote:
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.

41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Matt. 5)


I realize one could say this is talking about the civil law, but there's nothing in the 10 commandments which commands one to do the things Christ says here either.

Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved. The law says nothing about this. Christ revealed a love which is beyond comprehension, the self-sacrificing love of God, and in so doing demonstrated that truth of John's sublime declaration that "God is agape."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #120089
10/04/09 04:03 PM
10/04/09 04:03 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MountainMan
Satan has no problem with love.


Do you mean, "Satan has no problem with agape"? (i.e., the self-sacrificing love of God, as opposed to what we commonly call "love," but really isn't).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #120095
10/04/09 06:24 PM
10/04/09 06:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus went beyond the law in so doing.

What did Jesus do that is not commanded in the law? Please is keep in mind that the law commands love.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved.

This is impossible. Jesus could not be lost and sinners be saved.

Originally Posted By: Tom
Do you mean, "Satan has no problem with agape"? (i.e., the self-sacrificing love of God, as opposed to what we commonly call "love," but really isn't).

Satan has no problem with any form of love. In his own sick way he believes he is demonstrating the ultimate form of love by insisting God modify the law according to his dictates.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #120098
10/04/09 07:33 PM
10/04/09 07:33 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Jesus Christ proved God is love by revealing His character. Jesus went beyond the law in so doing. ... Christ was willing to be lost for all eternity that we might be saved. The law says nothing about this. Christ revealed a love which is beyond comprehension, the self-sacrificing love of God, and in so doing demonstrated that truth of John's sublime declaration that "God is agape."

I agree the law says nothing about forgiveness, and that the gospel revealed a dimension of God's love not revealed by the law. However, that dimension was also related to the law, because it had to do with its penalty. Christ received the penalty of the law in Himself, thus revealing the full dimension of God's self-sacrificing love. He made an infinite sacrifice for us.

Re: the great controversy [Re: Rosangela] #120107
10/05/09 03:27 AM
10/05/09 03:27 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
That is it "related" to the law is irrelevant. The salient point is that Christ fully revealed the Father's character, by making manifest His self-sacrificing love. Christ went beyond what the law required, by risking His own life for our redemption. He revealed a height and depth and length and breadth of love which cannot be comprehended, much less described by a law.

Quote:
Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. , and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #120108
10/05/09 03:29 AM
10/05/09 03:29 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MountainMan
Satan has no problem with love.


I'm curious. Does anyone else agree with this?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #120109
10/05/09 03:34 AM
10/05/09 03:34 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MountainMan
:Jesus went beyond the law in so doing.

T:What did Jesus do that is not commanded in the law?


Go to the cross, to mention one thing. He did so voluntarily, not under duress. Becoming a human being is another thing He did.

Quote:
Please is keep in mind that the law commands love.


It doesn't specify how this love should be manifest. The love of God wasn't fully known until Christ revealed it.

Quote:
(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 762)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: the great controversy [Re: Tom] #120123
10/05/09 01:32 PM
10/05/09 01:32 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
R: I agree the law says nothing about forgiveness, and that the gospel revealed a dimension of God's love not revealed by the law. However, that dimension was also related to the law, because it had to do with its penalty.
T: That is it "related" to the law is irrelevant. The salient point is that Christ fully revealed the Father's character, by making manifest His self-sacrificing love.... He revealed a height and depth and length and breadth of love which cannot be comprehended, much less described by a law.

By no means! It is totally relevant. Christ's death reveals both that 1) God would rather die than let His creatures perish without salvation, and 2) God would rather die than abolish or alter His law. Justice and mercy are inseparable.
What the law reveals is a different matter. You are confusing things.

Quote:
Christ went beyond what the law required, by risking His own life for our redemption.

I don't think this was the case.

"The life of a beast was of less value than the life of the offending sinner, therefore could not be a ransom for sin. ... Man could not atone for man. His sinful, fallen condition would constitute him an imperfect offering, an atoning sacrifice of less value than Adam before his fall. God made man perfect and upright, and after his transgression there could be no sacrifice acceptable to God for him, unless the offering made should in value be superior to man as he was in his state of perfection and innocency. The divine Son of God was the only sacrifice of sufficient value to fully satisfy the claims of God's perfect law. The angels were sinless, but of less value than the law of God. They were amenable to law. ... They were created beings, and probationers. Upon Christ no requirements were laid. He had power to lay down his life, and to take it again. No obligation was laid upon him to undertake the work of atonement. It was a voluntary sacrifice that he made. His life was of sufficient value to rescue man from his fallen condition." {RH, December 17, 1872 par. 2-4}


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