This is all part of the big question of Gods foreknowledge. I think what Mike wrote touches calvinistic thought, ie It could not have happened in any other way. Everyone who in the end will be saved is known by God to be saved today and a person who is not predetermined to be saved will be lost no matter what he or others do. Ofcourse God knows everything that everyone will be doing from the creation of the world up to now and into eternity. When God is grieved becourse of mans choises it is at best a charade becourse since it was known beforehand that man would inevietably chose that way and man therefore could not have choosen any other way.
The job description of the missionary changes from telling the world about Jesus love so that all could be saved into finding the ones that must be saved becourse they where written in the book of life since before the creation of the world. I was forseen to write this post and could not possibly have done anything other than to write it exactly as it stands here.

This is perhaps a bit on the extreme side and I am sure Mike wants to have a say on this. Looking forward to see how this does not apply (or perhaps how it does apply) to the views of you who discuss here.

/Thomas

Thomas, if what you say is true, then God is not in control, it makes Him an innocent bystander, a helpless victim of fate. You're right, it has to do with God's foreknowledge. I do not believe God's knowing the end from the beginning means we are not truly free moral agents, not any more than the messianic prophecies meant Jesus did not have a choice. The future for God is like watching a rerun on TV. He has already seen the details play out, and telling us what happened before it happens doesn't change the outcome, not does it rob us of the freedom to choose.

In the garden of Gethsemane and on Calvary, Jesus still had a choice, even though the prophecy foretold it. We are all predestined to be saved, but not all of us will make that choice, and God knows who will be saved and who will be lost. Knowing it ahead of time doesn't lessen His sorrow, rather it multiplies it, because He has been enduring it for eternity. Knowing the outcome also enables God to do everything He can to manage the consequences of our choices. God is in control, not fate, not luck, not even choice. He will win the great controversy because He is in control, becasue He knows the future, He's already seen it play out.

Why? Because the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.

AG 129
The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

You are saying that God made creatures to sin so that He could establish His throne in righteousness?

How can you say sin was inevitable when inspiration says

quote:

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It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil.Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin. (GC 492, 493)

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If sin was ineitable, it's pretty obvious that God was responsible for its entrance, isn't it? It's also easy to give a reason for its existance, which inspiration says is impossible.

How, indeed! Yes, sin is an intruder, whose existence is a mystery. Why beings, who were created perfectly holy and happy, would choose to sin is totally unexplainable. God did not make a mistake when He created us. There wasn't some kind of design flaw that we would want to sin, or that prevented us from refusing to sin. No, the fault rests with us, not with God. No excuse can be given, for to excuse sin is to explain it, and to explain why we choose to sin is to condone it.

But the fact God knew we would choose to sin, before He created us, does not explain why we choose to sin, nor does it explain the existence of sin, nor does it excuse sin. God promised that Jesus would pay the penalty for our sins, by tasting death for us on the cross, but Jesus still had to choose to drink the cup. He also had the choice not to go through with it. Just because God knew Jesus would choose to die doesn’t mean our Saviour had no choice when, in the garden, the cup trembled in His hands.

If "God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable," is it not clear that God intended for sin to occur?

Mike, I think your thoughts on the matter are probably too deep for the average reader. How God could know in advance that sin would arise, do nothing to prevent it and still be compleately innocent of it is beyond my and maybe others reasoning.

/Thomas