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Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #120275
10/08/09 09:41 PM
10/08/09 09:41 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
T:Had God "left" Satan to reap the full results of his sin, he would have perished, but it would not have been apparently that his death was the inevitable result of sin.

MM:Ellen White said the angels were fully aware of what God would do if they dared to persist in a course of rebellion. She wrote:

"Still the loyal angels urged him and his sympathizers to submit to God; and they set before them the inevitable result should they refuse: He who had created them could overthrow their power and signally punish their rebellious daring. No angel could successfully oppose the law of God, which was as sacred as Himself. They warned all to close their ears against Lucifer's deceptive reasoning, and urged him and his followers to seek the presence of God without delay and confess the error of questioning His wisdom and authority. {PP 40.2}


DA 764 makes clear what that punishment was.

Quote:
T:If God's glory had not been shrouded, it would have destroyed us. At the judgment of the wicked, it is not shrouded, and it will destroy.

M:She says it is the "light of His glory" that will slay the wicked. Light, not character, will slay the wicked. This "light" is literal light. Light can be "veiled", but not so character. The effect of this literal light on sinners is painful and deadly; whereas, it is life and healing to the risen saints. Of this light, Ellen wrote:

But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}


MM, the light of the glory of God is the revelation of His character. The next sentence from the quote makes this clear:

Quote:
In the time of John the Baptist, Christ was about to appear as the revealer of the character of God. His very presence would make manifest to men their sin. Only as they were willing to be purged from sin could they enter into fellowship with Him. Only the pure in heart could abide in His presence.


Light = revelation. Glory = character.

It's not a physical problem, but a spiritual one.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #120304
10/09/09 11:50 PM
10/09/09 11:50 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,619
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: asygo
T:The principles of "kindness, mercy and love" can in no way permit burning people alive for days. It shouldn't be difficult to see this.

A:But "kindness, mercy and love" can permit mental agony for days, leading to eternal death?

Your idea is that no matter what God does, He's not being kind, so it's OK for Him to burn people alive?

Fortunately, that is a misunderstanding of epic proportions. My idea is that God is ALWAYS kind, no matter what He does. Whether it is physical burning or mental agony, God is kind and always does what is best.

Let me state what I see as your view, point by point, and you tell me if any point is inaccurate:
* God is too kind to burn people alive.
* What will happen to the lost is "more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh" (via your Ty Gibson qoute found here: What is the inevitable of result of sin?; in the same post you said, "Hopefully the explanation from Ty will help you to understand my view.")
* God will reveal His glory to the lost, causing them to experience the "more terrible" agony that Ty Gibson describes.

Is that accurate?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #120306
10/10/09 12:00 AM
10/10/09 12:00 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,619
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
T:A little while later it says "their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves." Nobody would voluntarily choose to be set on fire for days.

A:If I remember the account in GC, the lost were not running away from the New Jerusalem when their destruction came. And if my understanding of the events is correct, Satan didn't kick himself out of heaven. Or are you saying that Satan left heaven willingly, of his own accord?

What I put in quotes is from GC 543. That is, "their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves."

But in describing what actually happens, she said this:
Quote:
At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset. {GC 664.3}
...
Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

Satan gathered the lost and had them surround the New Jerusalem. And he wanted them to attack (but it didn't work). Satan was not running away.


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #120307
10/10/09 12:03 AM
10/10/09 12:03 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,619
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: asygo
A:If I remember the account in GC, the lost were not running away from the New Jerusalem when their destruction came. And if my understanding of the events is correct, Satan didn't kick himself out of heaven. Or are you saying that Satan left heaven willingly, of his own accord?

What I put in quotes is from GC 543. That is, "their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves."

And if my understanding of the events is correct, Satan didn't kick himself out of heaven. Or are you saying that Satan left heaven willingly, of his own accord?


By God's grace,
Arnold

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: asygo] #120313
10/10/09 04:14 PM
10/10/09 04:14 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, it sounds like you're saying the character of God will cause the resurrected wicked to suffer and to die.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #120330
10/11/09 02:54 AM
10/11/09 02:54 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: asygo
My idea is that God is ALWAYS kind, no matter what He does. Whether it is physical burning or mental agony, God is kind and always does what is best.


This is circular reasoning. God can rape, murder, kill, torture, and He's still being kind? No! That's not right.

Acts which are kind are kind. If a kind person does things which are unkind, he ceases to be kind.

Quote:
Let me state what I see as your view, point by point, and you tell me if any point is inaccurate:
* God is too kind to burn people alive.


In the words of Ellen White, burning a person alive for ever is "unceasing tortures." Therefore burning a person alive for hours or days would be torture which was not eternal. I do believe God is too kind to torture people.

Quote:
* What will happen to the lost is "more terrible than any literal flame upon the flesh" (via your Ty Gibson quote found here: What is the inevitable of result of sin?; in the same post you said, "Hopefully the explanation from Ty will help you to understand my view.")


Horrible in the sense in which Ty is speaking, yes, which has to do with the conscience.

Quote:
* God will reveal His glory to the lost, causing them to experience the "more terrible" agony that Ty Gibson describes.


The SOP puts it this way:

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. (DA 764)


I didn't understand your point about Satan not running away. I didn't see the connection between this and my point that the exclusion of the lost from heaven is voluntary with themselves.

Quote:
And if my understanding of the events is correct, Satan didn't kick himself out of heaven. Or are you saying that Satan left heaven willingly, of his own accord?


Jude says that Satan and his followers "left" their habitation.

Quote:
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.


Ellen White says that rebellion would not be overcome by force, which is not a principle of God's government:

Quote:
Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. (DA 759)


She talks about his being cast down in terms of the cross here:

Quote:
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Rev. 12:10.

Satan saw that his disguise was torn away. His administration was laid open before the unfallen angels and before the heavenly universe. He had revealed himself as a murderer. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he had uprooted himself from the sympathies of the heavenly beings. Henceforth his work was restricted. Whatever attitude he might assume, he could no longer await the angels as they came from the heavenly courts, and before them accuse Christ's brethren of being clothed with the garments of blackness and the defilement of sin. The last link of sympathy between Satan and the heavenly world was broken. (DA 761)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #120331
10/11/09 02:55 AM
10/11/09 02:55 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Tom, it sounds like you're saying the character of God will cause the resurrected wicked to suffer and to die.


I've been quoting this:

Quote:
By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.(DA 764)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #120343
10/11/09 01:41 PM
10/11/09 01:41 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, the quote you posted above confirms my view. It is the radiant firelight of God's presence that will cause the resurrected wicked to suffer and to die.

I have no idea what you believe. You have yet to clearly articulate your view. Posting quotes which confirm my view does not help me understand what you believe. Please state your position plainly. Neither Ty nor Fifield has written anything that helps me understand your view. Quoting them has not been helpful. It would be a great relief if you would simply state your position plainly - so plainly that even a child could understand it.

Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Mountain Man] #120370
10/11/09 09:34 PM
10/11/09 09:34 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
The next sentence speaks of the glory of Him who is love. God's glory is His character of love. It's not a physical problem but a spiritual one.

I've not quoted Fifield on this subject, just on the atonement.

If you don't think Ty's writing is clear, I don't think there's anything I can do. He writes more clearly than I do.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: The Suffering of the Lost [Re: Tom] #120407
10/12/09 04:33 PM
10/12/09 04:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, I hear you saying the loving attributes of God's character will slay the wicked.

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