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Re: It Is Finished
#12015
12/12/04 11:13 PM
12/12/04 11:13 PM
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Very Dedicated Member
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
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You are not alone, västergötland.
A 'god' that is guilty, yet innocent,executioner yet lover, law demanding and yet law-breaking matches a too human concept of a despotic king, evil parent or at the very worst, the sort of God that Satan claims he wants freedom from. It is painting the Father in a dirty whitewash, unintentionaly, but dualistically just the same.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12016
12/13/04 12:05 AM
12/13/04 12:05 AM
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Thomas, you stated that well. I've thought about it many times over the years. In fact, a couple of decades ago we even had a sabbath school superintendent to state publicly that "sin is God's fault, since He knew it would happen when He created Lucifer." However, as mentioned previously, Inspiration says that "Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin."
{GC 492.2} and also "In the atonement the character of God is revealed. The mighty argument of the cross demonstrates to the whole universe that the course of sin which Lucifer had chosen was in no wise chargeable upon the government of God."
{GC 500.4} And that's good enough for me. Some things we won't understand completely in this life. [edit - typos] [ December 12, 2004, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: John ]
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Re: It Is Finished
#12017
12/13/04 12:16 AM
12/13/04 12:16 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
How God could know in advance that sin would arise, do nothing to prevent it and still be compleately innocent of it is beyond my and maybe others reasoning.
How indeed. Not only know about it, but actually cause it to happen, yet remain innocent.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12018
12/13/04 02:08 AM
12/13/04 02:08 AM
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Cause it to happen? That's not something God did.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12019
12/13/04 05:07 AM
12/13/04 05:07 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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I agree, God didn't cause sin to happen. That's what some think though.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12020
12/14/04 05:28 PM
12/14/04 05:28 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Sister White makes it clear that God created us in spite of the fact He knew we would choose to sin. The same is true of Lucifer. It is also clear that sin was impossible before God created free moral agents capable of sinning and dying. The second resurrection and second death is also possible because of God. I believe we should view these facts as giving God the credit for being in control of sin and death and salvation.
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Re: It Is Finished
#12021
12/14/04 06:47 PM
12/14/04 06:47 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: Sister White makes it clear that God created us in spite of the fact He knew we would choose to sin.
Tom: She makes clear that should man choose to sin a means was preparted to deal with it. She wasn't a Calvinist. She makes clear that God was not responsible for the entrance of sin nor that a reason can be given for its existence
Mike: The same is true of Lucifer. It is also clear that sin was impossible before God created free moral agents capable of sinning and dying. The second resurrection and second death is also possible because of God. I believe we should view these facts as giving God the credit for being in control of sin and death and salvation.
Tom: You are scratching where it doesn't itch. The universe is God's. There's no questions He is in control. No one has disputed that.
The issue is whether sin is something deadly or benign in and of itself. Is God aribtrary? Or is sin really something harmful?
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Re: It Is Finished
#12022
12/15/04 11:42 PM
12/15/04 11:42 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, we do not interpret her insight the same way.
AG 23
The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal" (Rom. 16:5, R.V.). It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. . . . God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {AG 23.4}
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Re: It Is Finished
#12023
12/17/04 01:37 AM
12/17/04 01:37 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)
Wonder and be astonished indeed!
If your interpretation of things were correct, and future is fixed, like a T.V. run, then how could God reveal to us that He took a risk in sending His Son? Could the rerun have changed course?
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Re: It Is Finished
#12024
12/17/04 05:45 PM
12/17/04 05:45 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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I do not pretend to understand the mind and heart of God. Knowing the future doesn't make it less fearful or dreadful. God considered the risks of sending Jesus to redeem us before we were even created. Those risks were real, and were in no way minimized because God knew the outcome in advance. I cannot comprehend it, but neither do I doubt it.
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