GC and Arnold, what do you think about the idea that it is the literal light radiating from God that will cause the wicked to suffer and die?

Also, do you think the resurrected wicked are capable of comprehending the character of God in a way that will cause them to suffer and die? If so, why didn't it happen while Jesus was here in the flesh? And, why doesn't happen it now? What will change after the resurrection that the wicked are all of sudden able to comprehend God's character and suffer and die as a result?

Mike,

I think the symbolic light will cause the wicked emotional agony. Seeing what they have lost, for eternity, as a consequence of their sins, will be punishment for them. It may not be the full punishment. I do not know that we can accurately ascertain what their actual punishments will be. I can imagine that some of the wicked would just rather seek relief from it all in death, but death will not come immediately.

I think God is capable of making people comprehend things which they might otherwise have been ignorant of. There is ample evidence for this in history.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, I'm having a hard time finding places in the Bible or the SOP where the wicked are described as suffering emotional agony due to their sins or a comprehension of God's character. Regretting being excluded from heaven is hardly emotional punishment. It's simply another expression of sin. Their response is a desire to take the New Jerusalem by force. When this is denied them, they turn upon one another in fits of rage. It is at this point that God is constrained to rain down fire from above and to raise up fire from below.

Mike,

What about "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth?" In any case, as I said earlier, this may be only part of it. We are also told that fire and brimstone will be "the portion of their cup."

The only question is, which one will actually cause them the most agony...the grief at seeing what they have forever lost? or the physical pain? (And I do not agree that "regretting being excluded from heaven" is an "expression of sin." Is it wrong to wish they had been in Heaven? Should they wish to be in hell instead, as they are?)

I think Tom's view is leaning more to the emotional trauma as the only pain of significance. He views the fire as too torturous for a loving God. I'm not so narrow-minded on this, as I believe it may well be both emotional and physical.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, I see what you mean. Good points.

RE: "And I do not agree that "regretting being excluded from heaven" is an "expression of sin." Is it wrong to wish they had been in Heaven? Should they wish to be in hell instead, as they are?"

2 Corinthians
7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Of this kind of repentance and sorrow, Ellen wrote:

There are many who fail to understand the true nature of repentance. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin. Such was the grief of Esau when he saw that the birthright was lost to him forever. Balaam, terrified by the angel standing in his pathway with drawn sword, acknowledged his guilt lest he should lose his life; but there was no genuine repentance for sin, no conversion of purpose, no abhorrence of evil. Judas Iscariot, after betraying his Lord, exclaimed, "I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood." Matthew 27:4. {SC 23.3}

The confession was forced from his guilty soul by an awful sense of condemnation and a fearful looking for of judgment. The consequences that were to result to him filled him with terror, but there was no deep, heartbreaking grief in his soul, that he had betrayed the spotless Son of God and denied the Holy One of Israel. Pharaoh, when suffering under the judgments of God, acknowledged his sin in order to escape further punishment, but returned to his defiance of Heaven as soon as the plagues were stayed. These all lamented the results of sin, but did not sorrow for the sin itself. {SC 24.1}

PS - Will any of the people named above change in judgment? Will they suddenly be able to experience a sinless form of sorrow and repentance? I doubt it. I suspect it will be sinful, an expression tainted with sin.

It's rather interesting that you view seeing the possibility of burning people alive as being not being "so narrow-minded." I certainly hope people such as yourselves, who are "not so narrow-minded," are never in a position of power to determine how people should be punished.





The principles of "kindness, mercy and love" can in no way permit burning people alive for days. It shouldn't be difficult to see this.

Also, setting people on fire to burn for days could hardly be construed as being "for their own good."

A little while later it says "their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves." Nobody would voluntarily choose to be set on fire for days.

But "kindness, mercy and love" can permit mental agony for days, leading to eternal death?


Tom, didn't you say that you were once asked to explain how subjecting the lost to eternally fatal mental anguish can be "for their own good"? And, IIRC, you said that 4 or 5 years later and you still can't answer the question. Do you see the double standard here?

Or maybe you have come up with an explanation of how eternally fatal mental anguish is good for the eternally lost. If so, please share it with us.


If I remember the account in GC, the lost were not running away from the New Jerusalem when their destruction came. And if my understanding of the events is correct, Satan didn't kick himself out of heaven. Or are you saying that Satan left heaven willingly, of his own accord?

Tom, do you think Ty's books teach the inevitable result of sin during judgment, as each sin is revisited, involves comprehending the contrast between their character and God's causing compounding mental and physical suffering eventually ending in death?

If so, do you think the physical presence of God is necessary for it to play out this way? Also, do you think literal fire will be present at the time? If so, what effect will it have on the wicked before they die?

PS - Please elaborate when you answer these questions. If they miss the mark, please take it upon yourself to clearly state your position. Don't wait until I'm clever enough to ask the right questions. Thank you.

Ellen White said the angels were fully aware of what God would do if they dared to persist in a course of rebellion. She wrote:

"Still the loyal angels urged him and his sympathizers to submit to God; and they set before them the inevitable result should they refuse: He who had created them could overthrow their power and signally punish their rebellious daring. No angel could successfully oppose the law of God, which was as sacred as Himself. They warned all to close their ears against Lucifer's deceptive reasoning, and urged him and his followers to seek the presence of God without delay and confess the error of questioning His wisdom and authority. {PP 40.2}


She says it is the "light of His glory" that will slay the wicked. Light, not character, will slay the wicked. This "light" is literal light. Light can be "veiled", but not so character. The effect of this literal light on sinners is painful and deadly; whereas, it is life and healing to the risen saints. Of this light, Ellen wrote:

But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed. At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." 2 Thess. 2:8. The light of the glory of God, which imparts life to the righteous, will slay the wicked. {DA 107.4}

When the divine Presence was manifested upon Sinai, the glory of the Lord was like devouring fire in the sight of all Israel. But when Christ shall come in glory with His holy angels the whole earth shall be ablaze with the terrible light of His presence. "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people." Psalm 50:3, 4. A fiery stream shall issue and come forth from before Him, which shall cause the elements to melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel." 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8. {PP 339.2}

Moses "was permitted to see the bright light and excellent glory that enshrouded the Father." {EW 162.3}

The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance. {GC 665.1}

So great was the divine glory revealed to Daniel that he could not endure the sight. Then the messenger of heaven veiled the brightness of his presence and appeared to the prophet as "one like the similitude of the sons of men" (verse 16). {RC 90.5}

Christ came to reveal to a fallen race the love of God. He, the Light of the world, veiled the dazzling splendor of the brightness of His divinity, and came to live on this earth as a man among men, that they might, without being consumed, become acquainted with their Creator. {UL 334.5}

They tell [Moses] that they cannot look into his face, for the radiant light in his countenance is exceedingly painful to them. His face is like the sun; they cannot look upon it. When Moses finds out the difficulty, he covers his face with a veil. He does not plead that the light and glory upon his face is the reflection of God's glory that He placed upon him, and that the people must bear it; but he covers his glory. The sinfulness of the people make it painful to behold his glorified face. So will it be when the saints of God are glorified just previous to the second appearing of our Lord. The wicked will retire and shrink away from the sight, for the glory in the countenances of the saints will pain them. {3T 354.3}

Your idea is that no matter what God does, He's not being kind, so it's OK for Him to burn people alive?



I'm quite sure you're not recalling this correctly. I don't think any of it.



I don't agree that this is the case.



What I put in quotes is from GC 543. That is, "their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves."