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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120415
10/12/09 07:46 PM
10/12/09 07:46 PM
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The following talks about the suffering of the lost before they are resurrected EW 280: ...There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God....there is nothing to stay the wrath of God But what is the wrath of God? Maybe better look at the quote in context: As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. It still says the wrath breaks with fury. But what is this wrath? Continuing on: The plagues were falling upon the inhabitants of the earth. Some were denouncing God and cursing Him. Others rushed to the people of God and begged to be taught how they might escape His judgments. But the saints had nothing for them. The last tear for sinners had been shed, the last agonizing prayer offered, the last burden borne, the last warning given. The sweet voice of mercy was no more to invite them. When the saints, and all heaven, were interested for their salvation, they had no interest for themselves. Life and death had been set before them. ...
And as mercy's sweet voice died away, fear and horror seized the wicked. With terrible distinctness they heard the words, "Too late! too late!"...
The people turned upon their ministers with bitter hate and reproached them, saying, "You have not warned us. You told us that all the world was to be converted, and cried, Peace, peace, to quiet every fear that was aroused. You have not told us of this hour; and those who warned us of it you declared to be fanatics and evil men, who would ruin us." But I saw that the ministers did not escape the wrath of God. Their suffering was tenfold greater than that of their people. Jesus left. Restraint was removed. Satan had entire control. Plagues could only be poured out when Jesus left and restraint was removed, control given to Satan. No one to invite them to be saved. They wanted to hear the words of God, but could not find it for there was a famine of those words. They turned on each other. They turned on the false shepherds of the Word. The ministers did not escape the wrath of God. Which right before that statement, she said they received bitter hate and reproach from their flock. What is the wrath of God? How do the wicked suffer? It appears to me from this section that they suffer at the hands of Satan who had entire control after God gave up that control, of each other, of the terrible realization that it's too late, the lack of God's word, and ministers suffer much greater at the bitter rebuke from their members. Am I not understanding what she's saying?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120422
10/12/09 08:49 PM
10/12/09 08:49 PM
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Tom, I hear you saying the loving attributes of God's character will slay the wicked. As in the other thread, I'd be very careful to not say something in way that didn't make clear that the death of the wicked is due to their own choice, as opposed to something God does to them. In DA 764, EGW repeats this point 9 times in a row. She speaks of how the wicked "place themselves" so out of harmony with God that His very presence becomes to them a consuming fire. The "place themselves" out of harmony with God. This is something "they" do.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#120450
10/13/09 03:24 PM
10/13/09 03:24 PM
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Tom, would you say - The light of the glory of God will slay the wicked?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120451
10/13/09 03:29 PM
10/13/09 03:29 PM
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. . . there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof." I hear you saying: The wrath of God = Satan causing death and destruction.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120452
10/13/09 03:47 PM
10/13/09 03:47 PM
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I hear you saying:
The wrath of God = Satan causing death and destruction. I don't know, but from what I read, it sounds to me like she's saying the wrath of God is when He leaves, when He stops restraining Satan, when the people cannot find the word of God, when they turn on each other and on their minister. I think this different than what you said. What do you think?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: kland]
#120459
10/13/09 04:08 PM
10/13/09 04:08 PM
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Kland, consider the following insight: "The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the wrath of God will be appeased. {EW 51.2} If we substitute your working definition of the wrath of God in this passage we end up with:
"The soul that sinneth it shall die an everlasting death--a death that will last forever, from which there will be no hope of a resurrection; and then the [death and destruction which results when God withdraws His protection] will be appeased."
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120462
10/13/09 04:14 PM
10/13/09 04:14 PM
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A death that will last forever.
What is death but not being connected with God.
Does God need to be appeased? Or is it the wrath of God?
If the wrath of God is the lack of God, doesn't it fit with the lack of God will be appeased?
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: kland]
#120466
10/13/09 08:51 PM
10/13/09 08:51 PM
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What we have had since the Fall is a type of the lack of God. I don't think being absent satisfies His wrath. His wrath is manifested when He is present - not when He is absent.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Mountain Man]
#120473
10/14/09 02:01 AM
10/14/09 02:01 AM
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What we have had since the Fall is a type of the lack of God. I don't think being absent satisfies His wrath. His wrath is manifested when He is present - not when He is absent. In Scripture, God's wrath is presented as the hiding of His face. It's rather the opposite of what you're suggesting, it sounds like. For example: 17Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?(Deut 31) God's wrath is manifest in His forsaking them, hiding His face, not being among them.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: The Suffering of the Lost
[Re: Tom]
#120474
10/14/09 03:47 AM
10/14/09 03:47 AM
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Tom, Telling God what He is like?  When I am angry, sometimes I am quiet, and sometimes I shout. Do you suppose God is always doing the exact same thing when He is angry? I'm glad to see that you have quoted a good Old Testament reference, however. The Old Testament does reveal God to us. I'm sure you are already familiar with a New Testament example here--the temple in Jerusalem getting cleansed. Was this by Jesus' absence? Hiding His face? 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD. God is not hiding Himself or His anger in the above passage--quite the opposite. That He sometimes acts one way, and sometimes another, should not surprise us. Is this not His prerogative? Do we get to say what God should and should not do? Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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