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Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: gordonb1] #120383
10/12/09 12:34 PM
10/12/09 12:34 PM
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vastergotland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: gordonb1

Before sin, God and Christ created man "in our image, after our likeness." (Gen. 1:26)

But the man contained male & female. Eve was "called Woman, because she was taken out of Man". (Gen 2:23)

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them" (Gen 1:27)

There was no conception recorded before the fall of man - No record that sexual union existed before the fall. Only the command to "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth" (Gen. 1:28) Multiplication could have been achieved differently before the fall.

Conception is only described after the fall, and this in connection with sorrow. "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children" (Gen. 3:16)
_____
Non-sexual reproduction? Incidentally I read about this concept this summer. The book claimed to be a summary of the secret society(occult) version of world history. It sure was strange reading and I never expected to see ideas from there restated here.

You could note that "greatly multiply sorrow" indicates relationship. You will not know that sorrow has increased unless you know what it was before. To realise that a change has occurred you must be familiar with the starting position.

You point out that no conception was recorded before the fall of man. Well, its not exactly an exhaustive text we are looking at. For all that we know by reading it, this could have been the same evening when they where created in the morning.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: Rosangela] #120384
10/12/09 12:39 PM
10/12/09 12:39 PM
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vastergotland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Matthew 22:30 is very clear: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven."
Folks, what is the basis for saying that human beings will neither marry nor be given in marriage for a thousand years, but after this they will resume marrying? What is the basis for saying that they will be like the angels in heaven but will cease to be like the angels in the new earth?
Some can quote Isaiah to "prove" that there will be marriage and births in the new earth; I can also quote Isaiah to "prove" that there will be sin and death in the new earth.
As Ellen White says, Christ's words are too plain to be misunderstood.

As an aside, Ellen White gives us additional light about this:

By the power of His love, through obedience, fallen man, a worm of the dust, is to be transformed, fitted to be a member of the heavenly family, a companion through eternal ages of God and Christ and the holy angels. Heaven will triumph, for the vacancies made by the fall of Satan and his host will be filled by the redeemed of the Lord.--UL 61. {TA 287.1}

God created man for His own glory, that after test and trial the human family might become one with the heavenly family. It was God's purpose to repopulate heaven with the human family, if they would show themselves obedient to His every word. Adam was to be tested, to see whether he would be obedient, as the loyal angels, or disobedient.--1BC 1082. {TA 287.2}
If we will no longer be humans in the resurrection, may Calvin be right about absolute predestination, that God decides what the redeemed thinks and wills.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: vastergotland] #120386
10/12/09 01:27 PM
10/12/09 01:27 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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What about couples taken to Heaven and to the New Earth - will they remain married or will they be considered unmarried? If they remain married will they cease having children? If they are considered unmarried will they stop having romantic affections for one another? If so, why?

"Men and women can reach God's ideal for them if they will take Christ as their helper. What human wisdom cannot do, His grace will accomplish for those who give themselves to Him in loving trust. His providences can unite hearts in bonds that are of heavenly origin. Love will not be a mere exchange of soft and flattering words. The loom of heaven weaves with warp and woof finer, yet more firm, that can be woven by the looms of earth. The result is not a tissue fabric, but a texture that will bear wear and test and trial. Heart will be bound to heart in the golden bonds of a love that is enduring. {LYL 16.3}

Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: vastergotland] #120389
10/12/09 01:52 PM
10/12/09 01:52 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
If we will no longer be humans in the resurrection, may Calvin be right about absolute predestination, that God decides what the redeemed thinks and wills.

Jesus said we will be like the angels, and we definitely aren't like the angels now. Therefore, we will be somewhat different from what we are now.
Since God doesn't decide what an angel thinks and wills, why would He do so for us in the afterlife?

Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: Mountain Man] #120390
10/12/09 02:01 PM
10/12/09 02:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
What about couples taken to Heaven and to the New Earth - will they remain married or will they be considered unmarried? If they remain married will they cease having children? If they are considered unmarried will they stop having romantic affections for one another? If so, why?

Pursuing this further, if someone becomes a widow(er) more than once and marries again, will that person have several espouses in heaven? (By the way, this was what the sadducees were asking Jesus. What was His answer?) And if someone's spouse doesn't go to heaven? Will some be single there while others will have several spouses?

Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: vastergotland] #120397
10/12/09 03:07 PM
10/12/09 03:07 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
It would be incorrect to assume we will be restored to the exact form in which Adam and Eve were created. Did they have wings? wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Why do you believe translated humans will have wings? Did Jesus have wings when he was resurrected? Paul says we will have bodies such as His in our translation, but says nothing about Jesus having been anatomically different from before His death. Mary did not mistake Jesus for an angel at the grave, she mistook Him for the gardener.

Further, why would we not be translated to the form Adam and Eve had after creation? God said that the world He had made was good. Are you now saying that it was not good enough but need improvements for the second try?

Vaster,

First of all, we are told we will be like the angels, right? Do they not have wings? Furthermore, other portions of inspiration give us little details of this as well.

"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles" (Isaiah 40:31).

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall" (Malachi 4:1, 2).

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Then Jesus' silver trumpet sounded, as he descended on the cloud, wrapped in flames of fire [2 Thessalonians 1:7,8] He gazed on the graves of the sleeping saints, then raised his eyes and hands to heaven and cried out, [John 5:25.] Awake! Awake! Awake! ye that sleep in the dust, and arise. Then there was a mighty earthquake. The graves opened, and the dead came up clothed with immortality. The 144,000 shouted, Hallelujah! as they recognized their friends who had been torn from them by death, and in the same moment we were changed and caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. [1 Thessalonians 4:17.]... Here on the sea of glass the 144,000 stood in a perfect square. Some of them had very bright crowns, others not so bright.... We tried to call up our greatest trials, but they looked so small compared with the far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory [2 Corinthians 4:17.] that surrounded us, that we could not speak them out, [Isaiah 65:17.] and we all cried out Hallelujah, heaven is cheap enough, and we touched our glorious harps and made heaven's arches ring. And as we were gazing at the glories of the place our eyes were attracted upwards to something that had the appearance of silver. I asked Jesus to let me see what was within there. In a moment we were winging our way upward, and entering in; here we saw good old father Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Daniel, and many like them. ... {WLF 16.1}


Originally Posted By: Ellen White
... We passed through the wood, for we were on our way to Mount Zion, as we were traveling along we met a company who were also gazing at the glories of the place: I noticed red as a border on their garments. Their crowns were brilliant--their robes were pure white. As we greeted them, I asked Jesus who they were? He said they were martyrs that had been slain for him. With them was an innumerable company of little ones, they had a hem of red on their garments also. Mount Zion was just before us, and on the Mount sat a glorious temple, and about it were seven other mountains, on which grew roses and lilies, and I saw the little ones climb, or if they chose use their little wings and fly to the top of the mountains, and pluck the never fading flowers....{DS, January 24, 1846 par. 1}


Indeed, the "wings" concept comes from more than mere imagination here...although I grant that my imagination has sometimes looked forward to the day when I can fly--and we are also told Heaven will be more than we can imagine. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: Rosangela] #120400
10/12/09 03:27 PM
10/12/09 03:27 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
If we will no longer be humans in the resurrection, may Calvin be right about absolute predestination, that God decides what the redeemed thinks and wills.

Jesus said we will be like the angels, and we definitely aren't like the angels now. Therefore, we will be somewhat different from what we are now.
Since God doesn't decide what an angel thinks and wills, why would He do so for us in the afterlife?
Context please, what was the situation and what was the topic? Whom did Jesus say this to and what important qualifier is given in the text when this group is presented? And how does the short speech end?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: vastergotland] #120403
10/12/09 04:17 PM
10/12/09 04:17 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
The context is,

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in Heaven."

???

Is there any other way to interpret these plain words?

Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: Green Cochoa] #120404
10/12/09 04:18 PM
10/12/09 04:18 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: västergötland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
It would be incorrect to assume we will be restored to the exact form in which Adam and Eve were created. Did they have wings? wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Why do you believe translated humans will have wings? Did Jesus have wings when he was resurrected? Paul says we will have bodies such as His in our translation, but says nothing about Jesus having been anatomically different from before His death. Mary did not mistake Jesus for an angel at the grave, she mistook Him for the gardener.

Further, why would we not be translated to the form Adam and Eve had after creation? God said that the world He had made was good. Are you now saying that it was not good enough but need improvements for the second try?

Vaster,

First of all, we are told we will be like the angels, right? Do they not have wings? Furthermore, other portions of inspiration give us little details of this as well.
Let me begin by quoting the full relevant passage before moving on.

Matthew writes: 23That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. 24"Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. 25Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. 26The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. 27Finally, the woman died. 28Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"

29Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."

33When the crowds heard this, they were astonished at his teaching.

I boldened the parts which I referred to in my reply to Rosangela. Now, what was Jesus answer to the inquiry of the Sadducees? He pointed out that their error was double. They did not know the scriptures nor the power of God. Therefore knowledge of the scriptures together with knowing God clearly would have preempted their question. Then follows the sentence we are discussing here. Jesus said: At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. In what respect do Jesus say that people will be like angels? Is there any warrant for extrapolating this to other aspects of anglehood? And how does this relate to Jesus first sentence in His answer, where He points out that the whole question is ill founded?
Quote:

"They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles" (Isaiah 40:31).
There is nothing suggesting that this would refer to any time in an unknown future from its context. Rather it looks like a promise that anyone who is faint and weary can claim for today. This and the fact that a couple of verses previously compares the inhabitants of earth to grasshoppers suggest we can safely catalog these "wings as eagles" under poetic language.
Quote:

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall" (Malachi 4:1, 2).
Here is another example where taking the message without placing overdue emphasis on the exact images used to give it seems the best path. For surely people are not wood with roots and branches and nor do we grow up to become calves in the stall. Drawing a correct distinction between narrative and poetic text is a virtue.
Quote:

Indeed, the "wings" concept comes from more than mere imagination here...although I grant that my imagination has sometimes looked forward to the day when I can fly--and we are also told Heaven will be more than we can imagine. wink

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
Lastly, we have the third and fourth sentence in this short speech. And my claim here is that it is highly inconsistent to claim narrative speech for the first two and figurative speech for the last two when the main thing that differs them is that we want to believe the first is factual and that we want even more to believe that the second is not. I am of course speaking of these: 31But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you, 32'I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'[a]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." God is the God of Abraham and God is not the God of the dead but the God of the living, thus the only logical conclusion that can be deduced is that Abraham is not dead but living. But no orthodox Adventist would venture there, not least because doing so would make him or her orthodox adventist no more.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: Two Institutions of Creation - The Sabbath and Marriage [Re: vastergotland] #120410
10/12/09 06:05 PM
10/12/09 06:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Thomas, Jesus was referring to the future results of the resurrection, not that it was already a reality in the cases of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus referred to death as sleep. In this sense, they are not dead.

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