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[ January 01, 2005, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

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[ January 01, 2005, 07:17 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

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[ January 01, 2005, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Tom, the fact Jesus could have come "ere this" doesn't mean God doesn't know the exact day and hour of the second advent. Prophecy proves God is in control, that He knows the end from the beginning. If we doubt this truth then we cannot trust the promises of God. Please reread the quotes I posted above in my last post. They leave no room to doubt the foreknowledge of God.

Matthew
24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark
13:32 But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Knowing the end from the beginning does not rob us of the freedom to choose. "God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency." How can we read this insight and conclude that God did not foresee the fall of Lucifer and mankind? I don't see how she could have worded the truth any clearer!

DA 22
From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. {DA 22.2}

AG 129
But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. {AG 129.2}

PP 43
He that ruleth in the heavens is the one who sees the end from the beginning--the one before whom the mysteries of the past and the future are alike outspread, and who, beyond the woe and darkness and ruin that sin has wrought, beholds the accomplishment of His own purposes of love and blessing. {PP 43.1}

Was it God's intention that sin exist? Not in the sense that He wanted it to happen, or that it had to happen in order to safeguard the future. It is not necessary to sin in order to know sin is evil and wrong. Otherwise, we would have to commit every form of sin imaginable to know beyond doubt that sin is evil and wrong.

DA 58
In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. {DA 58.1}

GC 492, 493
Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. {GC 492.2}

But. It is still obvious, and too simple to see, that had God not created Lucifer, the great controversy never would have started. Why didn't God create only those angels He knew would choose to remain loyal? Not creating Lucifer would have violated no ones freedom to choose.

Why didn't God deny Satan access to Adam and Eve? Why didn't He stand beside Eve, at the forbidden tree, and merely ask her a few simple questions, before she ate? Why didn't He stand beside Adam, before he too ate, and promise him another wife? Why did God stand back and watch?

There are a number of things God could have done to prevent sin, without violating our freedom to choose. Why didn't He? I believe Sister White got it right when she wrote:

GC 493
Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. {GC 492.2}

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[ January 01, 2005, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]

Mike,

That's an interesting series of quotations you posted. And I appreciate the fact that in your last post, you offered a few quotes which opposed your stated views. But you didn't go nearly far enough in that direction to examine the whole subject instead of only that which agrees with your opinion. How about presenting the many passages of scripture in which God changed His mind? Or laid plans or was influenced by humans. He said there are things that never entered His mind and He said He would forget. Why aren't these passages in your postings? There are a number of prophecies recorded which never came to pass. Jonah's prophecy about the destruction of Nineveh in forty days and Ezekiel's prophecy about the layout of Palestine on the return of the Jews to Jerusalem are two obvious examples. Why didn't you post those examples?

You might get a clue about some of this from 2 Samuel 24 which tells about the Lord becoming angry at the children of Israel, telling David to go number Israel and Judah. After he had done it, the Lord punished David and the people for doing it! Hmmm. Does that sound like our God? But wait, there's more. If you go to 1 Chronicles 21, you find the same story, but it is Satan who provokes David to number Israel.

Adventists have long tried to follow a word-by-word literal translation of the Bible followed by a proof-text exegesis to make our points. But we keep getting in trouble with other Bible scholars who study beyond the surface. Beyond that, we keep leaving out the texts which don't say what we want them to say (like you did when you left out those texts which present God as a real finite Being living in real time). Current Adventist scholarship is remedying these problems. I invite you to become part of that scholarship.

RL

Boblee, you are so right. Thank you for drawing attention to those troubling passages. My answer? 1) God is in control, whether He causes it or permits it. 2) Prophecy is conditional.

None of the troubling texts you cited contradicts the fact that God knows the end from the beginning, that human history, for God, is like watching a rerun on TV.

EV 695
Our Saviour did not appear as soon as we hoped. But has the Word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and the threatenings of God are alike conditional. {Ev 695.1}

GC 48
God permits the wicked to prosper and to reveal their enmity against Him, that when they shall have filled up the measure of their iniquity all may see His justice and mercy in their utter destruction. {GC 48.2}

GC 614
The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}