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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12064
12/31/04 03:42 AM
12/31/04 03:42 AM
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There is an interesting observation which I believe is relevant to this discussion in the November 2004 issue of Discover magazine in which Lord Robert May, who was the United Kingdom's former chief scientific adviser and the highest authority on science during the mad cow years, was interviewed by Jocelyn Selim, who is an associate editor of Discover magazine. Lord May was asked "Which countries are better at science?" As part of his answer he observed, "The best science performers are countries which make sure young people are set free to pursue their own agenda and express their creativity."
As I read this, I thought how much this sounds like God, who made humans capable of pursuing our own agenda and who encourages us to express our creativity. It was a gamble, of course. Just as some young people will use their creativity to the destruction of themselves and society, God realized that sooner or later, some element of His creation may try to create something that is similarly destructive. But because He made provisions to counter such a development in no way means He intended for it to happen or foreknew it would any more than a university that encourages a free agenda and creativity among its students is promoting destruction or chaos.
"God has foreknowledge" and "prophecy is conditional" are mutually exclusive concepts. If one is correct, the other is impossible just like having an irresistible force and an immovable object in the same environment is impossible. I agree that the Bible does present such dilemmas. The question is not which one to believe, after all, they may both be true. The real question is "how do we handle such perplexities?"
RL
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12065
12/31/04 04:50 AM
12/31/04 04:50 AM
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quote:
The real question is "how do we handle such perplexities?"
By faith!!! We must learn to take God at His word.
Hebrews
11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
5T 698, 699
"Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts." "I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done." It is impossible for the finite minds of men to fully comprehend the character or the works of the Infinite One. To the keenest intellect, to the most powerful and highly educated mind, that holy Being must ever remain clothed in mystery. {5T 698.2}
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12066
12/31/04 05:25 PM
12/31/04 05:25 PM
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OP
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Mike, I believe God has perfect foreknoledge. I have not posted anything contrary to this. I disagree with your view of the future, that it is like a "T.V. rerun." That's what I find to be contrary to inspiration. EGW did not say simply that Christ "could have come" before [many different times suggested] but that Christ *would* have come. That's what proves your idea to be incorrect. If the future were indeed like a "T. V. rerun," then it cannot be true that Christ "would have come." This should be clear. The passages that Boblee pointed out are also contrary to this view of a fixed future. quote:
At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jer. 18:7-10)
So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel; and seventy thousand persons fell in Israel. And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but when he was about to destroy it, the Lord took note and relented concerning the calamity; he said to the destroying angel, "Enough! Stay your hand." The angel of the Lord was then standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. (1 Chron. 21:14, 15)
In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover." Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord: "Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." Hezekiah wept bitterly. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake." (2 Kings 20:1-6)
Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!". (Jer. 26:19)
And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people. (Ex. 32:14)
Therefore the Lord the God of Israel declares: "I promised that your family and the family of your ancestor should go in and out before me forever'; but now the Lord declares: "Far be it from me; for those who honor me I will honor, and those who despise me shall be treated with contempt. See, a time is coming when I will cut off your strength and the strength of your ancestor's family, so that no one in your family will live to old age. (1 Sam. 2:30, 31)
Then the prophet Shemaiah came to Rehoboam and to the officers of Judah, who had gathered at Jerusalem because of Shishak, and said to them, "Thus says the Lord: You abandoned me, so I have abandoned you to the hand of Shishak." Then the officers of Israel and the king humbled themselves and said, "The Lord is in the right." When the Lord saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the Lord came to Shemaiah, saying: "They have humbled themselves; I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance, and my wrath shall not be poured out on Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak. (2 Chron. 12:5-7)
When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it. (Jonah 3:10)
It makes no sense to suggest that God "changes His mind," if the future is "like a T.V. rerun."
Regarding free will, the point is that if the future is fixed, then it is not possible to choose something other than what the future holds. Thus our "free will," is not real, but only apparent. At any given point in time, we only have one choice available -- we just think we do.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12067
01/01/05 02:15 AM
01/01/05 02:15 AM
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God went looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, crying out loud, as if He didn't know where they were. God often sought answers to questions He already knew. Why? Why does God ask rhetorical questions? Is it because He really doesn't know the answer? If God doesn't know the future how is is He able to reveal it in prophecies?
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12068
01/01/05 04:04 AM
01/01/05 04:04 AM
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OP
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The issue isn't God's knowledge of the future, it's the nature of the future itself. If the future is fixed, then what God reveals of Himself is feigned.
The fact that God asked a rhetorical question, does not imply the future is fixed. Assuming the future, like a TV re-run, is fixed leads to many problems.
For example:
1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?
2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?
3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?
4) How can God reveal that things occured differently than He hoped?
5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?
6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?
7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?
8) How can God change His mind?
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12069
01/01/05 05:40 AM
01/01/05 05:40 AM
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[ January 01, 2005, 07:22 AM: Message edited by: Doug Meister ]
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12070
01/01/05 05:47 AM
01/01/05 05:47 AM
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Tom, you totally missed my point. We have to interpret what God says in the Bible in light of the fact He knows the end from the beginning. This applies to His rhetorical questions as well as to the passages where it appears God isn't in control or wishes to change His mind.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12071
01/04/05 03:53 AM
01/04/05 03:53 AM
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OP
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Mike, you're assuming your conclustion. You're assuming the future is as Plato surmised, rather than as God has revealed things in Scripture, and when things don't agree with your view, you take them as rhetorical. It's hard to prove anything from Scripture if you can just call something you disagree with as rhetorical whenever it disagrees with your point of view.
You didn't deal with any of the points I raised regarding why your view of a fixed future causes problems. There is much in inspiration which indicates the future is not fixed, some of which I pointed out in the above mentioned points.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12072
01/03/05 04:41 PM
01/03/05 04:41 PM
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Okay. Apparently you believe God has never used hyperboles or rhetorical questions to make His point. So, what about God and a fixed future? Here's what makes sense to me. There are only two possible outcomes of any given situation - the perfect way and ways that are not perfect. I believe God causes everything to turn out the perfect way.
That is not to say that everything is perfect, but rather He makes everything, no matter how good or bad it is, turn out perfect. It's all relative. For example, a drunk driver kills a pastor and his two sons, but he lives. A jury acquits him and he goes home free. His guilt and shame causes him to accept Jesus as his personal Saviour. By the way, I know of this person.
God could have prevented the accident. He could have prevented the pastor and his two sons from dying. God could have caused him to be convicted and imprisoned. He might have died in prison an unsaved man. But since God knows the end from beginning He made everything turn out perfectly. He always makes everything turn out perfect.
Since God is holy, just and good, He cannot sit back and allow things to turn out any old way, to turn out less than perfect. He didn't wind up the earth and then go on vacation. He is very involved ensuring that things turn out perfect and end up perfect. Indeed, He is obligated to make everything turn out perfect, because otherwise He would be guilty of indifference.
Whether fixed or not, God makes the future turn out perfect. It cannot be any other way. Since it cannot be any other way, God can just as easily foretell it, because He knows the end from beginning.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12073
01/03/05 04:50 PM
01/03/05 04:50 PM
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OP
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Mike, I made 8 specific points. I don't see how your post addresses any of these posts.
Clearly things are not "perfect." If they were, we wouldn't need to pray, "Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." We see injustice, suffering and the results of sin wherever we look.
These things exist because God created us as free moral agents, with the capacity of rebelling against Him. The question I started this topic with is if this rebellion was according to God's plan. Was it God's intention that the human race should rebel against Him?
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