I don't know what your point is Mike. I also don't see how the points I made were addressed.

There are obviously things in this world which are not perfect. God does not make them perfect. They can't be made perfect. That's the nature of sin.

God causes all things to work together for His purposes for those who love Him, if that's what you mean.

1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?

God created free moral agents even though He knew they would choose to sin. He did not make or force them to sin.

2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?

I don’t think God takes risks in the same way humans take risks. It can't possibly mean the same thing.

3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?

Knowing the end from the beginning doesn’t rob us of free will. For example, the messianic prophecies foretold many things, but they didn’t rob Jesus of His free will.

4) How can God reveal that things occurred differently than He hoped?

We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, so we don’t know if what God stated was His will or if what actually happened was His unstated will. The word of God produces the desired effect, whether explicit or implied.

5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?

Because that's what would have happened. The fact it didn’t happen was no surprise to God. He knows the end from the beginning. Saying it would have happened doesn't change the fact that God knows when it will happen. The day and hour has been fixed from eternity.

6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?

By complying with the conditions. Encouraging us to believe that what we do is an important part of it is simply stating the truth. That's how God set things up. God knows how we will react to this promise, which is why He knows the day and hour of Jesus' return.

7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?

We don’t know that He has to experience things spontaneously in order to be happy or whatever.

8) How can God change His mind?

Whenever it says God changed His mind or repented of something, it obviously doesn’t have the same connotation as it does when referring to human beings.

1) How is God not responsible for the entrance of sin, if the future is fixed?

God created free moral agents even though He knew they would choose to sin. He did not make or force them to sin.

Tom: You wrote that "that God is responsible for creating a situation where sin and death was inevitable." This certainly sounds like you're saying God was responsible for the entrance of sin.

2) How does God assume risks in a fixed future?

I don’t think God takes risks in the same way humans take risks. It can't possibly mean the same thing.

Tom: Why not?

quote:

---

The value of a soul, who can estimate? Would you know its worth, go to Gethsemane, and there watch with Christ through those hours of anguish, when He sweat as it were great drops of blood. Look upon the Saviour uplifted on the cross. Hear that despairing cry, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" Mark 15:34. Look upon the wounded head, the pierced side, the marred feet. Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 196)

---

Why should we not understand this to mean just what it says? It's clear enough:

1) Christ risked all.
2) Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.


3) How do we have free will in a fixed future?

Knowing the end from the beginning doesn’t rob us of free will. For example, the messianic prophecies foretold many things, but they didn’t rob Jesus of His free will.

Tom: My question has nothing whatsoever to do with knowing the end from the beginning. This is scratching where it doesn't itch. My question is how can I have free will if the future is fixed? If the future is fixed, there is only one possible future. Free will means being able to do more than one thing, to have options. But if the future is fixed, I don't have more than one option. I don't really have free will -- I just think I do. Isn't that clear? If not, I'll try to explain it some more.

4) How can God reveal that things occurred differently than He hoped?

We don’t know what goes on behind the scenes, so we don’t know if what God stated was His will or if what actually happened was His unstated will. The word of God produces the desired effect, whether explicit or implied.

Tom: This sounds like Calvinism and "secret" wills. If the future is fixed, it makes no sense for God to have said that things went differently than He had hoped, since in this scenario God would have known from all eternity what would have happened.

5) How can God reveal that Christ would have come earlier if certain conditions have been met?

Because that's what would have happened. The fact it didn’t happen was no surprise to God. He knows the end from the beginning. Saying it would have happened doesn't change the fact that God knows when it will happen. The day and hour has been fixed from eternity.

Tom: But the point is, under your way if thinking, it COUNDN'T have happened. It would have been duplicitous for God to say something "would have" happened if it were impossible for said thing to have happened.

6) How can we delay or hasten Christ's coming?

By complying with the conditions. Encouraging us to believe that what we do is an important part of it is simply stating the truth. That's how God set things up. God knows how we will react to this promise, which is why He knows the day and hour of Jesus' return.

Tom: The question is how it can be said that we can "delay" or "hasten" Christ's coming if the future is fixed. It should be obvious that we can't affect the timing of Christ's coming if the future is fixed, yet inspiration tells us we can. Something's not right here.

7) How can God spontaneously experience anything?

We don’t know that He has to experience things spontaneously in order to be happy or whatever.

Tom: He presents Himself in Scripture as experiencing sorrow, joy and so forth contemporaneously with events that transpire. If these events were known by Him from all eternity, these accounts of Him experiencing joy and sorrow make no sense.

8) How can God change His mind?

Whenever it says God changed His mind or repented of something, it obviously doesn’t have the same connotation as it does when referring to human beings.

Tom: Why is it "obvious"? Only because it disagrees with your preconceived notions. Whenever this happens you respond that it "obviously" doesn't mean what it says. I think it's "obvious" that God meant what He said.

Mike,

You said, "We have to interpret what God says in the Bible in light of the fact He knows the end from the beginning." You take this one text which can be interpreted in a number of different ways and twist all the other things God says in the light of your peculiar interpretation of Isaiah 46:10. Why can't you turn that around and interpret Is. 46:10 in the light of all the other things about how God relates to the future including the very next verse which says, "yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Obviously God is NOT saying He knows my choices in advance, or yours. God is saying in v 11 that He knows what He Himself has proposed doing. And as Tom has pointed out, God has proposed (prophesied) many things which we humans have not allowed Him to do.

By your preconceived prejudice you are not allowing yourself to listen to what God actually says. If God can forget (which He says He can and will do in Jer 31:34), who are we to say, "You can't do that Lord. That doesn't fit our concept of You." I believe we need to listen to what God says about Himself and pay attention to the way He acts and adjust our thinking accordingly rather than try to force Him into our preconceived notions of what He should say and how He should act like you did in a previous post where you said:

"God went looking for Adam and Eve in the Garden, crying out loud, as if He didn't know where they were. God often sought answers to questions He already knew. Why? Why does God ask rhetorical questions? Is it because He really doesn't know the answer?"

Why do you think God knew the answer? He didn't act like He did. Let's accept God for what He says He is, not for what we imagine He is.

RL

1 and 2. No further comment. We’ve hashed and rehashed it enough.

3. God’s knowing the future does not mean we do not have choices, it simply means He knows the choices we will make, and the way He will handle the consequences, and the ripple effect it has upon everyone and everything touched by it. Jesus had plenty of choices, but God knew exactly which ones He would make and the outcome.

4. The things God chooses to reveal to us may have a deeper meaning and purpose than the words themselves imply, and yet those very words serve His purpose in a way that may not make sense to us now. God has backdoor and side door ways of getting things done and making things turn out according to His perfect plan.

5. What God says after the fact doesn’t change the facts, nor does it mean He has no idea when Jesus will return. What could have been, would have been, or should have been doesn’t change what is and will be, or the fact God knows exactly how and when Jesus will return.

6. God’s telling us we can hasten or hinder the return of Christ does not imply He has no idea when Jesus will return. It serves God’s righteous plan to cut things short, otherwise things could go longer than God’s perfect plan. Telling us our part is important motivates us to do things that ensure God's perfect plan will turn out according to His will. If need be, He will cause the rocks to make up the difference.

7. As I see it, it means He experiences things twice – before it happens and when it happens. Knowing something ahead of time doesn't spoil the affect, rather anticipation heightens things when it does happen.

8. If God repents or changes His mind in the same way or for the same reasons we do, it would imply that God doesn’t know what is best beforehand, which would also imply God is not all wise or in control. The great controversy is too complex for God to wing it, to make things up along the way. There is one perfect plan, and God is making sure things go according to His one and perfect plan.

Boblee, God knew King Cyrus would allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem, and God also knew it would take Jesus and Gabriel working on his mind for three weeks. Yes, it is true, not all prophecies are so unconditional. In fact, many, if not most, were conditional. But not so with the prophecies recorded in the Revelation. Everyone of them will turn exactly the way God said. No doubt about it. This, of course, means God knows, in advance, our choices and the outcome.

Tom, do you agree with Boblee, that God didn't know the answers to the questions He asked in the Garden of Eden? that He really didn't know where Adam was, or if he had eaten the forbidden fruit?

1 and 2. No further comment. We’ve hashed and rehashed it enough.

Tom: OK, but I still don't get it. "Risk" means the possibility of loss, even for God. Especially when the phrase goes, "God sent His Son at the risk of failure and eternal loss." That means Christ really could have failed, which means the future cannot be fixed.

3. God’s knowing the future does not mean we do not have choices, it simply means He knows the choices we will make, and the way He will handle the consequences, and the ripple effect it has upon everyone and everything touched by it. Jesus had plenty of choices, but God knew exactly which ones He would make and the outcome.

Tom: You seem hung up on God's knowing of the future, which is, as I'm repeatedly pointed out, not the issue I'm discussing. My point is that it is not possible for the future to be fixed and for us to have free will. Free will means having options. We cannot have actual options if the future is fixed, only apparent options. I don't know how else to say this. It appears to me you're not understanding what I'm saying because you keep responding with stuff about God's knowing the future not affecting our choices, which is not at all what I'm talking about.

4. The things God chooses to reveal to us may have a deeper meaning and purpose than the words themselves imply, and yet those very words serve His purpose in a way that may not make sense to us now. God has backdoor and side door ways of getting things done and making things turn out according to His perfect plan.

Tom: I agree with this, but this doesn't deal in any way with the point I made, which was that if the future is fixed, it makes no sense for God to reveal that things could have been different than how they turned out. If the future is fixed, there is not other way.

5. What God says after the fact doesn’t change the facts, nor does it mean He has no idea when Jesus will return. What could have been, would have been, or should have been doesn’t change what is and will be, or the fact God knows exactly how and when Jesus will return.

Tom: This again is not addressing the point. The point is that if the future is fixed, then it cannot be said that Christ "would have" come at some other time. That's simply not possible.

6. God’s telling us we can hasten or hinder the return of Christ does not imply He has no idea when Jesus will return. It serves God’s righteous plan to cut things short, otherwise things could go longer than God’s perfect plan. Telling us our part is important motivates us to do things that ensure God's perfect plan will turn out according to His will. If need be, He will cause the rocks to make up the difference.

Tom: How does it motivate us if it's not true? That is, if the time for Jesus' coming is fixed, at say 2046, then there's no way we can change that. For God to say we can make a difference, that we could hasten His coming, would just be a lie. God cannot lie, though, so when He reveals that we can hasten or delay His coming, that means we really can, which means the date is not fixed. The events around 1888 actually did delay Christ's coming. The Spirit of Prophesy tells us that in several places.

7. As I see it, it means He experiences things twice – before it happens and when it happens. Knowing something ahead of time doesn't spoil the affect, rather anticipation heightens things when it does happen.

Tom: Twice doesn't come close to being right in your scenario. If God knows everything that will happen from all eternity, then He has experienced everything an infinite amount of times, not twice. The fact that He experiences it in infinite amount of times is what makes it impossible for Him to experience anything spontaneously, under your scenario.

8. If God repents or changes His mind in the same way or for the same reasons we do, it would imply that God doesn’t know what is best beforehand, which would also imply God is not all wise or in control. The great controversy is too complex for God to wing it, to make things up along the way. There is one perfect plan, and God is making sure things go according to His one and perfect plan.

Tom: I'm not sure what "for the same reasons we do" means. God is omniscient. He doesn't change His mind for lack of wisdom or insight, but because circumstances change. His plan is always perfect, depending on the circumstances at the time.

I've got no idea what you mean by saying there is one perfect plan. That's what Calvinists say. Do you mean the same thing they do when they say it? Or do you mean something different?

Was sin a part of God's "perfect plan"? Did God intend for sin to exist? (the original question of this topic). It seems to me the answer, according to your way of thinking, would have to be "yes."

3. God will not allow things to turn out less than best, different than His perfect plan. Father knows best, therefore that’s exactly how it has and will play out. God cannot sit back and allow things to run amuck, and still be a God of love, a God who is in control, a God who can make promises. He will not violate our freedom to choose, but neither will He allow the consequences of our choices derail His perfect plan. He has and will exert an all powerful influence here and there and however to ensure everything works out according to His perfect plan.

4. What is an example of something that didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, within the context of the great controversy? I am suggesting that however things turn out is how God planned it.

5. By telling us what might have been God motivates us to do our part now. This doesn’t imply that things didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, which also takes into account our mistakes and shortcomings, our faults and imperfections. It’s not lying to tell what have might have been, neither does it mean God has no idea when Jesus will return, which your ideas seem to imply. Are you saying God doesn’t know, from eternity, right now, the exact day and hour when Jesus will return?

6. The exact day and hour of Christ’s return is fixed because God is orchestrating a perfect plan. We don’t know when Jesus will return, but not knowing shouldn’t prevent us from doing everything God has commanded us to do, because the day and hour of Christ’s return is based on everything we are doing and will do, and everything God does. God knows all these things in advance, which is how and why He knows exactly when Jesus will return. The idea that we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ must be understood in the context of God’s perfect plan.

7. No further comment.

8. God is not so shortsighted that He must continually modify and update His perfect plan to accommodate unforeseen circumstances. God will not, indeed, He cannot allow things to turn out less than perfect. I am sharing what makes sense to me, not what Calvin thinks about it. God implemented His perfect plan the moment Adam sinned. Everything that has happened since then is according to God’s perfect plan. God is in absolute, total control of the outcome of the great controversy. Everything is on time and going according to His perfect plan.

Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.

PS – I realize you do not agree with me, and that you think I’m missing the point. If I am missing the point, then so be it. But the truth is – we just don’t agree regarding the future and the foreknowledge of God. It might be best if we stop studying this topic for now, and turn our attention to something more fruitful.

3. God will not allow things to turn out less than best, different than His perfect plan. Father knows best, therefore that’s exactly how it has and will play out. God cannot sit back and allow things to run amuck, and still be a God of love, a God who is in control, a God who can make promises. He will not violate our freedom to choose, but neither will He allow the consequences of our choices derail His perfect plan. He has and will exert an all powerful influence here and there and however to ensure everything works out according to His perfect plan.

Tom: You're going off on a different point again. My point was that if the future is fixed, we cannot have free will. Free will involves being able to make choices. You can't make choices if there's only choice. I don't think your comments have anything to do with the point I made. If they did, I don't see how.

4. What is an example of something that didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, within the context of the great controversy? I am suggesting that however things turn out is how God planned it.

Tom: What's an example? What's not an example! All of sin is an example of things going differently than God planned. God never planned for sin to occur. The Spirit of Prophesy makes that point many times.

5. By telling us what might have been God motivates us to do our part now. This doesn’t imply that things didn’t work out according to God’s perfect plan, which also takes into account our mistakes and shortcomings, our faults and imperfections. It’s not lying to tell what have might have been, neither does it mean God has no idea when Jesus will return, which your ideas seem to imply. Are you saying God doesn’t know, from eternity, right now, the exact day and hour when Jesus will return?

Tom: It's lying for God to say that Jesus would have come at some other time if it's impossible that that could happen. Isn't that clear? I'm saying that the future is not fixed. All of my arguments are centering on that point, but you have not addressed that point once.

6. The exact day and hour of Christ’s return is fixed because God is orchestrating a perfect plan. We don’t know when Jesus will return, but not knowing shouldn’t prevent us from doing everything God has commanded us to do, because the day and hour of Christ’s return is based on everything we are doing and will do, and everything God does. God knows all these things in advance, which is how and why He knows exactly when Jesus will return. The idea that we can hinder or hasten the return of Christ must be understood in the context of God’s perfect plan.

Tom: If the future is fixed, how can we delay or hinder Christ's coming? It should be clear that we can't. That's my point.

You keep going off on tangents about God's perfect plan and what God does and doesn't know. This does not address my argument.

My argument is that if the future is fixed, we cannot either hasten nor delay Christ's coming. That's very simple logic.


7. No further comment.

8. God is not so shortsighted that He must continually modify and update His perfect plan to accommodate unforeseen circumstances. God will not, indeed, He cannot allow things to turn out less than perfect. I am sharing what makes sense to me, not what Calvin thinks about it. God implemented His perfect plan the moment Adam sinned. Everything that has happened since then is according to God’s perfect plan. God is in absolute, total control of the outcome of the great controversy. Everything is on time and going according to His perfect plan.

Was it God’s intention that sin exist? The fact He created beings He knew would choose to sin says that He was willing to deal with the sin problem. He didn’t make them sin. Dealing with sin has been a part of God's perfect plan from eternity.

PS – I realize you do not agree with me, and that you think I’m missing the point. If I am missing the point, then so be it. But the truth is – we just don’t agree regarding the future and the foreknowledge of God. It might be best if we stop studying this topic for now, and turn our attention to something more fruitful.

Tom: You're right that I think you're missing the point. I made 8 arguments that the future cannot be fixed, and you didn't address that point once although you responded several times to my posts. It's OK to skip to something else, but it would be nice if you would address my arguments, given that you've chosen to respond.

I'm curious as how your vision of things is different than Calvinism. I know you say that your stating things as you see it, but it's so similar to Calvinism that I can't help but think that your thinking has been shaped by Calvinism.

I still haven't gotten a clear answer, that I'm aware of (I apologize if you have answered this somewhere in this topic and I missed it) to the original question, which is if you think that God intended for sin to occur. It seems to me you must think so, based on what you've said, but I'd prefer not to put words in your mouth.

Do you believe that sin entering into the world was a part of "God's perfect plan"?