kland, I got some of your point, but not the rest. The part I think I got is you're pointing out a sort of circular reasoning which is, if God does something, it must be OK, since He's God. This is then used to prove that what God does was OK. So if we read that God murdered or tortured someone, that would be OK, since anything God does is OK (although we'd probably want to use different words to describe God's actions, which we don't consider to be negative, such as "punish").

I'm hearing you say that these things are not OK, and we should realize this, and consider that there's something wrong with us for even considering that God could do these things.

Did I understand this part correctly?

I didn't understand the rest.

Tom, here is the list again with the changes you made. Please note where I've asked questions.

1. God reveals His mercy, kindness, and love in small doses, which is healing for us, if we respond.

What does this look like in reality? Please give examples of God revealing love, mercy, and kindness in ways that do not cause us to suffer and die.

2. When people choose sin, they separate themselves from God, who alone is the source of life. In so doing, they cut themselves off from life.

In practical terms, how do sinners sever the lifeline between them and God? Is it the same as saying they die? If so, do they die immediately? If not, why not?

3. The suffering of the wicked comes as a consequence of their own choice.

What choice?

4. The suffering of the wicked is due to their selfishness.

How does selfishness cause suffering?

5. Sin causes the wicked to suffer.

How does sin cause them to suffer?

6. Sin causes sinners to feel lost, hopeless, and abandoned by God.

Does this apply to resurrected sinners? If so, why?

7. The rejection of truth hardens and destroys sinners.

How does truth cause sinners to die? Is it truth or sin that causes them to die?

8. They form characters so out of harmony with God that they cannot abide His presence, which is a consuming fire to them.

What consumes them? How does it consume them?

9. As they revisit their lives they weep and gnash their teeth (i.e. suffer).

Why does revisiting their life cause to suffer?

10. Sin is what causes death.

Is it sin or truth that causes them to die? And what causes their heart to stop beating?

11. God destroys sinners by being good to them.

Like an overdose? If so, what causes their heart to stop beating?

12. God destroys sinners by fully revealing to them His character, kindness, goodness, mercy, and love.

Like an overdose? If so, what causes their heart to stop beating?

It looks like Jesus Christ.



Consider Jesus Christ.



I quoted this from DA 764. She didn't go into the detail you are asking.



The choice to cling to sin.



You should know this by personal experience.



Same answer.



Yes. Because this is the impact of sin on they psyche. We see this in Adam and Eve's reaction in the garden when they sinned.



Sin ruins their character so they can not stand to have the truth revealed to them.



Look at DA 107-108.



Missed opportunities. A longing for things which could have been. Recognition of errors made. Seeing the consequences of their sin. Etc.



Sin ruins their character so they can not stand to have the truth revealed to them.



No.



As I've said repeatedly, I have no desire to go beyond what has been revealed. No matter how many times you repeat this question, it's likely you'll get this response.



As I've said repeatedly, I have no desire to go beyond what has been revealed. No matter how many times you repeat this question, it's likely you'll get this response.

If by saying Jesus will never sin means Jesus could not sin, then did Jesus risk anything by coming here? That no matter what He did, it would not be sin?

I thought you said Jesus was the full revelation of God?


Same question.


Are you saying Ellen did not explain the cause of death?


How does clinging to sin cause suffering?


If they suffer now why do they need to suffer again?


Is it sin or the resulting selfishness that causes them to suffer?


Where in the Bible or the SOP does it say the wicked will feel lost, hopeless, and abandoned by God?


How does truth and sin cause them to die?


It says the radiant firelight of God's presence causes them to die.


Where in the Bible or the SOP are these ideas described?


How does truth and sin cause them to die?


Does small doses cause sinners to die?


You seem to think you know what prevents them from dying, but you don't know what causes them to die? What is your definition of death? I believe a person is dead when brain, blood, and breath cease to function. So, what is it about revisiting their life that cause these functions to cease?


I though you said God fully revealed Himself through Jesus while He was here in the flesh? If so, why didn't it cause sinners to die?

PS - Is there a problem with saying revisiting their life in judgment causes the brain, blood, and breath to cease functioning? Otherwise, what else could cause these function to cease?

Jesus did not sin. He was tempted to sin while He was here in the flesh, but He chose not to sin. Theoretically He could have sinned if He had wanted to, but not once did He want to. Do you agree?

Yes.



What's the question?



No.



See DA 107-108.



Why do you think they need to suffer?



What do you mean "resulting selfishness"? Why not simply "selfishness"? Why should it be one or the other? Doesn't selfishness and sin go together?



DA 759, I think it is, is one place I've mentioned to you many times when you've asked this question. (where Jesus felt the anguish of the wicked).



See DA 107-108, and DA 764. Also GC 541-543.



No it doesn't.



1.The same thing that gives life to the righteous is what slays the wicked. That rules out radiant firelight.

2."Light" = "revelation." "Glory" = "character. The context bears this out, as the very next sentence speaks of Christ as "the revealer of the character of God."

3.There's no mention of "radiant firelight" in the passage. The character of God is mentioned, but not "radiant firelight."



You could look up "weeping and gnashing of teeth" to find out where.



Did you notice that you already asked this?



Sin causes sinners to die.



Why do you think this?



The second death? If that's what you have in mind, I think studying Christ's death is the best way to try to understand what the second death is.



I've already responded to this.



God has taken action to prevent people from dying in this life due to sin, or else they wouldn't have the opportunity to develop character. People don't see things in their true bearing until the judgment. We've seen some glimpses of what the judgment will be like in the times in DA where it talks about divinity flashing through humanity.



DA 764 says:

T: People don't see things in their true bearing until the judgment.

Why not?

---

T: I think studying Christ's death is the best way to try to understand what the second death is.

What do you think caused Jesus' brain, blood, and breath to cease functioning?

---

T: "If they suffer now why do they need to suffer again?" Why do you think they need to suffer?

I think they will suffer for reasons you don't. Why do you think they will suffer again if they already suffered before they died?

I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, "If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist." {EW 54.2}

1. Why would beholding the glory of the form of the person of God cause Ellen to cease to exist? In what sense would she have ceased to exist?
2. How can comprehending the truth set sinners free now if it will cause them to suffer and die in judgment?
3. Why doesn’t the truth cause backsliders to suffer and die now? What does God do to arbitrarily prevent it?

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

4. Please explain the literal meaning of the passage above.
5. Is it describing revisiting their sins in judgment? Or, it is describing events that unfold after judgment?

“God destroys sinners by fully revealing to them His character, kindness, goodness, mercy, and love.” Jesus fully revealed these attributes while He was here in the flesh. The effect divinity flashing through humanity had on sinners while Jesus was here in the flesh is a glimpse of what it will be like for sinners in judgment.

6. Why didn’t the full revelation of the attributes of God cause sinners to suffer and die while Jesus was here in the flesh? Did God do something arbitrary to prevent it? If so, what?
7. Why will resurrected sinners continue to live after they finish revisiting their sins in judgment? What will be the source of their life – the breath of life? If not, what? Why won’t comprehending the truth or revisiting their sins cause them to die? What is the difference between suffering for our sins now and suffering for them in judgment?
8. How do you define death as it relates to the wicked? And, what do you think will cause them to die? Why will it cause them to die?
9. What does God do to arbitrarily prevent evil angels from suffering and dying? What is their source of life?
10. What will evil angels learn about God in judgment that they don’t already know? Will it cause them to suffer and die? If so, why? Also, will the knowledge they now have cause them to suffer and die in judgment? If so, why doesn’t it cause them to suffer and die now?

Do you think Nadab and Abihu spontaneously combusted? Or, do you think they died of means other than fire or the radiant light of God? If so, what do you think caused them to die?

Also, what caused the following sinners to die:

Numbers
16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

2 Kings
1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.