Not resurrecting them.



I've not said this.



Nor this.



Nor this.



I've quoted DA 764 and DA 759 (if I remember the page right, where it talks about Christ's suffering the anguish the wicked will experience in the final judgment) many times for you.



No it doesn't.



GC 541-543 explains why. Especially page 542.



Of course not.



No, that's not the only thing. See GC 542.



This is correct, and this is what causes them their suffering. If they didn't despise God and His character, they wouldn't suffer.

I think that, in the end, your definition of torture means that God will be torturing the lost.


According to that definition, any kind of intense pain caused, so long as it is with the intent of punishing, is torture. Apparently you think hell will not be intense.

Yet I am still left without an answer to my question. I have heard much about what kind of suffering you do NOT believe in. I have yet to hear which is the true kind, according to you. It appears you would rather believe in no suffering at all, which is why I have said it also appears you do not accept Mrs. White on this point.

Hint: Feeling loved by God is not tantamount to "suffering" in my book, and unless you have some strange ideas about love, I do not see how love itself would extinguish life. Love may prompt an ACTION to extinguish life, but it was then the tangible action that extinguished life, and not intangible "love."

If, on the flip side, we were to say "God's love causes death," then why would not all of His subjects die, since He loves them all? To say it only causes death to sinners makes God's love partial, unjust, and unfair.

So...back to the missing puzzle piece: What is the suffering of the wicked? If, as you said, "the wicked do actually suffer," how so?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Tom, like GC, I am struggling to decode and decipher what you believe from what you've posted. It's still not clear to me what you think will cause the wicked to suffer. Citing references from the SOP and Ty comes short of clearly explaining your view. I'll provide an explanation and you can reject it or modify it until it clearly reflects your belief. Here goes:

The wicked choose to be resurrected and to revisit their sins in judgment. For their own good, and for good of the universe, God accommodates their choice. As they revisit their sins, one at a time, their shame and guilt increases and intensifies. As they comprehend more fully the contrast between their character and God's they experience exponential emotional pain and agony. The revelation and comprehension of truth, love, mercy, and kindness reaches unbearable levels and their heart finally fails and they die eternally.

The definition doesn't say "caused" but "inflicted," the point being that the punishment is not a natural consequence.



No, that's not the issue. I think the punishment will be the result of the choice of the wicked, as opposed to an arbitrary act of power on the part of God. I think DA 764 is very clear regarding this.



As I've been saying saying along, I don't believe in arbitrarily imposed suffering from an unrelated source. I believe the suffering of the wicked is the result of their own choices.



As I've been saying all along, I believe the suffering of the wicked comes as a consequence of their own choice, as DA 764 points out.



No, I've never said anything like this. The wicked will suffer, but not as the result of an arbitrary act of God, such as setting them on fire, but as the result of their own choice, as DA 764 points out. I've said this many times. We're on page 35 of this thread, and on virtually every page I've said this.



DA 764 and DA 107-108 discuss this.



Because many have chosen to embrace the principles of God's government, instead of choosing to live according to the principles of selfishness, which can only result in suffering and death.



Not if sin is what causes the death!



The suffering of the wicked is due to their selfishness. Surely you've been selfish in your life. You should know from your own experience the suffering that selfishness causes.

Please refer to the post that spells things out according to the principles involved. That should help your struggling.



Sin causes the wicked to suffer.



Ok, then just think of your own experience. Surely you've suffered as the result of sin.



What? This makes no sense to me. They're dead. How can they choose anything?



Again, they're dead. How can they choose anything?



I don't understand why, if you wish to understand what I'm saying, you wouldn't read what I've said. I've not said this.



I've not said this either.



Or this.

I'd refer you back to the post I wrote a few days ago which discusses the principles involved.

Here's the post I'm referring to MM:

Yes, God punishes and destroys the wicked. That's stated many times. The disagreement isn't of this, but over how this works. Is the punishment arbitrary? Or is it a consequence of sin? Is the destruction arbitrary? Or is it a consequence of the choices the wicked have made?

Or, to ask the question another way, how does the destruction work? Here's how I think it works.

Sin causes us to believe things about God which are not true. This is seen in Adam and Eve's behavior after they sinned. God had not changed in His attitude toward them; He still loved them, just as much as before. But sin changed *them*. They ran and hid from God. They had become deathly afraid of Him, even though He had given them no reason to. Sin made them act irrationally.

This impact of sin is unavoidable. It happened to Christ on the cross. Christ felt doomed. He felt lost, abandoned, without hope. But God had not changed. God still loved Christ, as much as ever. In fact, far from abandoning His Son, God was suffering with His Son. He left heaven to be close to Him. God and the angels were there at Calvary. God was crucified with Christ.

But Christ couldn't sense these things. Instead, His sense was of being abandoned. This is what sin does to one.

(Something important to note is that Christ was able to overcome this effect of sin by faith. He died triumphantly, convinced in His Father's goodness, regardless of His inability to see through the portals of the tomb.)

If God did nothing to help us, sin would cause us to separate from God, who alone is the source of life, and we would perish. For example, "God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life."(DA 764)

So God sends us light, in order to save us from the death of sin. This is how God saves us, and how He destroys us. If the light is heeded, it is for our salvation. If it is resisted, it is for our destruction.

Consider Pharaoh. Scripture says that God hardened Pharaoh's heart. The SOP makes it clear that God did so by sending Him light. The hardening of the heart took place as Pharaoh sent Him light. So God "hardened" his heart. How? By being nice to Him.

That's the same way God destroys. The principles of mercy, kindness, and love are the means by which God destroys, just as these were the principles by which God hardened Pharaoh's heart. Actually, hardening Pharaoh's heart is how God destroyed him. When a person's heart becomes totally hardened, the person is lost. At the judgment, the person won't be able to stand the full revelation of God's character, which is His kindness, mercy and love.

So what God does is to give us His mercy, kindness, and love in small doses, which is healing for us, if we respond. By this means God is able to save us from sin, and prepare us to meet Him in His full glory, which is the fullness of His kindness, mercy and love.

If we refuse His kindness, mercy, and love now, we won't be able to stand it in the hereafter. We won't want to have anything to do with God, or those who love Him, and will voluntarily choose to be excluded from heaven. We will judge ourselves.

The glory of God, *who is love*, will destroy us. It doesn't seem to me that you ever recognized the import of the "who is love" part. If the issue were a physical one, having to do with radiant light, the "who is love" part wouldn't fit in. But the real issue has to do with God's character. The preceding sentence says, "By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire." This is talking about character.

The whole Great Controversy is about character. The character of God is under dispute. God vindicates His character through Jesus Christ. How we respond to the revelation of God's character is what fixes our destiny.

Quote:

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

...Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice.(GC 542-543)


Not responding to the revelation of God's character is what fixes the destiny. If we don't respond to that revelation here, we won't be able to respond to it in the hereafter.

God reveals His character through Jesus Christ; His kindness, mercy, and love; His goodness. This is how He destroys.

Some have suggested that when we see God doing something which might make us think not highly of Him such as directly killing, maiming, torturing, causing heads to roll, or otherwise harming and making people suffer, we are not to give second thought to such things as everything God does is Righteous and Holy. If it wasn't, God wouldn't be doing it. Therefore, the problem is what we think of God. More of a, "God said it, I believe it, and that's all there is to it", kind of reaction.

If anything God does is righteous and holy and nothing God can do would not be righteous and holy, would it follow by the same logic that Jesus, who is a reflection of God, did not and could not do anything except that which was righteous and holy? That is, would anything that Jesus could do be automatically considered righteous and holy?

Tom, here is a list of things you have posted about why sinners suffer and die. Do you want to modify or clarify anything?

1. God reveals His mercy, kindness, and love in small doses, which is healing for us, if we respond.

2. Sin causes sinners to separate from God, who alone is the source of life, and they perish.

3. The suffering of the wicked comes as a consequence of their own choice.

4. The suffering of the wicked is due to their selfishness.

5. Sin causes the wicked to suffer.

6. Sin causes sinners to feel lost, hopeless, and abandoned by God.

7. The rejection of truth hardens and destroys sinners.

8. The wicked do not choose to be resurrected and or to revisit their sins in judgment.

9. The wicked do not revisit their sins, one at a time, and they do not experience shame and guilt increasing in intensity.

10. As the wicked comprehend more fully the contrast between their character and God's they do not experience emotional pain and agony increasing exponentially.

11. The revelation and comprehension of truth, love, mercy, and kindness does not reach unbearable levels, nor does it cause their heart to fail or cause them to die eternally.

12. Sin is what causes death.

13. God destroys sinners by being nice to them.

14. The principles of mercy, kindness, and love are the means by which God destroys sinners.

15. The full revelation of God's character, which is His kindness, mercy, and love will destroy sinners.

16. God reveals His character through Jesus Christ; His kindness, mercy, and love; His goodness. This is how He destroys.

God cannot sin. It is impossible. Jesus did not sin. He will never sin.

Nice job compiling this list.



OK.



Close. When people choose sin, they separate themselves from God, who alone is the source of life. In so doing, they cut themselves off from life.



OK



OK



OK



OK



It hardens their heart, not allowing them to respond to God's love, which would heal them. They form characters so out of harmony with God that they cannot abide His presence, which is a consuming fire to them.



These are two different things. Nobody chooses to be resurrected, of course, since everyone is unconscious. However, after being resurrected, one regains consciousness. I haven't made any comment about the wicked choosing or not choosing to have their sins revisited.

Rather than thinking of having their sins revisited, I would put it more in terms of revisiting their lives.



Again, I would put it more in terms of their lives being revisited. As this happens there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The more sin in their lives, the more light rejected, the more weeping and gnashing (i.e. suffering).



Why exponentially? This was your idea. I don't know what you were thinking.



I don't think I've commented on this. I think I just said I didn't want to go beyond what DA 764 said. I don't think I'd either confirm or deny what you just wrote.



OK.



Probably being good to them is a better way of putting it. Or kind. "Nice" has sort of a negative connotation.



They are the means by which He process the judgment is the point I've made.



OK.



OK.