Have you ever seen a statement that all of the wicked will bow to God and declare that their sentences are just? The text which says "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow" I have always understood to speak of a future time when sin is no more, and all of God's creatures happily serve Him. I know that Satan himself will bow and admit that his sentence is just, but I have never seen a statement which applies this confession generally to all of the wicked.

If you know of a statement which is clear on this, I would be interested in seeing it. I don't consider this a major issue, just a side-note of curiosity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

GC, if we consider the quote presented from "The Great Controversy," I think you can see the idea there:

The aim of the great rebel has ever been to justify himself and to prove the divine government responsible for the rebellion. To this end he has bent all the power of his giant intellect. He has worked deliberately and systematically, and with marvelous success, leading vast multitudes to accept his version of the great controversy which has been so long in progress. For thousands of years this chief of conspiracy has palmed off falsehood for truth. But the time has now come when the rebellion is to be finally defeated and the history and character of Satan disclosed. In his last great effort to dethrone Christ, destroy His people, and take possession of the City of God, the archdeceiver has been fully unmasked. Those who have united with him see the total failure of his cause. Christ's followers and the loyal angels behold the full extent of his machinations against the government of God. He is the object of universal abhorrence.

Satan sees that his voluntary rebellion has unfitted him for heaven. He has trained his powers to war against God; the purity, peace, and harmony of heaven would be to him supreme torture. His accusations against the mercy and justice of God are now silenced. The reproach which he has endeavored to cast upon Jehovah rests wholly upon himself. And now Satan bows down and confesses the justice of his sentence.

"Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest." Verse 4. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy has now been made plain. The results of rebellion, the fruits of setting aside the divine statutes, have been laid open to the view of all created intelligences. The working out of Satan's rule in contrast with the government of God has been presented to the whole universe. Satan's own works have condemned him. God's wisdom, His justice, and His goodness stand fully vindicated. It is seen that all His dealings in the great controversy have been conducted with respect to the eternal good of His people and the good of all the worlds that He has created. "All Thy works shall praise Thee, O Lord; and Thy saints shall bless Thee." Psalm 145:10. The history of sin will stand to all eternity as a witness that with the existence of God's law is bound up the happiness of all the beings He has created. With all the facts of the great controversy in view, the whole universe, both loyal and rebellious, with one accord declare: "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints."

Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man's behalf. [/u]The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named.[/u] It was for the joy that was set before Him--that He might bring many sons unto glory--that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: "Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages." And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12.

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged.(GC 670-671)


I highlighted some key points to consider. The significance of the bowing down of Satan is not a physical act, but a mental one. It refers to the recognition of the facts of the matter, that God has been just in all His dealings, that Satan's actions have been totally uncalled for, and that Christ is worthy to receive His place of honor and glory. The act of Satan's recognition of these facts is referred to as his bowing down.

Since the wicked will recognize the same things that Satan does, it makes sense to characterize their actions the same way. Every tongue confess the righteousness of God.



Here's another passage which brings out this thought:



The "every knee shall bow" verse is quoted, and the explanation is given that the universe will be convinced of God's righteousness. Every knee shall bow = All are convinced of God's righteousness (i.e., God's character is vindicated, which is the purpose of the Great Controversy).

Since all are convinced, wicked and righteous alike, the "every knee shall bow" applies to all, although one could certainly argue that it applies in a special way to those who not only recognize God's righteousness, but love Him.

Another passage:



There seems to be no doubt from this one that the wicked are included among those whose knee shall bow and tongue confess.

Another one:



One more:

MM, as I understand your view, you see the fire that comes down from heaven as a literal fire, but not one that actually sets the wicked on fire. It causes fires to spring up around them, from which they feel heat and discomfort, but they are not actually set on fire. Have I understood your position correctly?

You have some interesting views. How come you believe this? Why is it wrong for the rest of us to believe this too? Just because we believe that God will actually be in control of said fire? Would you prefer that God, the King of the Universe, were not in control?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Tom,

Regarding #121014, that makes sense.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

But, that does not say that God prepared the fire.

As far as you saying Tom rejects inspired words, should those words be read within it's proper context, is the Bible clear, as clear as who killed Saul?

You say "the rest of us," but I think it's only you and Arnold. You are the only one who flat out says God will burn the wicked alive. Arnold says he's leaning towards that view. Neither MM nor Rosangela believe the wicked will be burned alive as you do.



To be clear, I think the purpose of the fire will be to purify the earth, not to cause suffering or death or to make people pay for their sins. DA 764 says that the glory of God will destroy the wicked, not literal fire.

GC 541-543 says that God will use the principles of kindness, mercy and love in the final judgment. I can't understand why you would think that burning people alive would somehow be espousing these principles when it's obviously diametrically opposed to it. There isn't even a government on this corrupt earth of ours that punishes people in this way. Why? Because it's true humane and cruel. Yet you believe that God, who is the kindest being in the universe, who loves people so much He gave His only son, God!, will do something so cruel and inhuman that it's beyond sinful human beings to do.

I don't understand how you don't see the disconnect in this.

I can understand why you would think that people need to be punished. I can understand looking at this from a legal perspective, as something the law requires. Even though I disagree with this perspective, I can understand it. I can't understand the idea that God would punish people by burning them. The idea that people have to be tortured to pay for their sins comes from paganism. There's nothing in the law that says, "The punishment for breaking the law is to be burned alive."

Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me." Christ suffered the penalty of the law. If the penalty of the law for sin were being burned alive, Christ would have been burned alive. We see in Christ's death what the punishment of the law really is.

Would fire engulfing the earth be the same as in the days of Noah? While it could be considered that God is in control of everything, God wasn't in control of the flood as the flood happened when He was no longer in control of the water, when He gave up control of it, when man said they didn't want Him and to let them be, He removed Himself from them.

Implied in your last statement, is God in control of Satan?

Of course God controlled the flood. He guided and protected the ark; He made sure to bury the animals, plants, people, and large masses of gold and silver beneath the mountains; He made sure that the flood was of sufficient duration, force/violence, and coverage area to ensure the death of all the wicked--covering even the highest of mountains by more than the height of the tallest man then living; He caused a wind to blow to dry up the waters afterward; and through it all, He preserved a remnant of man and beast by which to repopulate the earth, even ensuring sufficient time following the recession of the waters for adequate quantities of grass to grow to feed the animals before their release. I would say God was very much in control. We are told that even Satan feared for his life on account of the violence of the flood.

And yes, God is in control of Satan in that He sets limits upon what Satan can and cannot do. Read the following passage from Patriarchs and Prophets which describes the whole flood situation in more detail, and correlates it to the final "deluge by fire."



As we can see evident in this passage, the wicked were convicted in their judgment of the what they had earlier tried to deny--that God was in control, and rules over all. They realized the Source of the judgment, and their own sinfulness which had merited it.

Notice their accusation against God on account of His judgments? They accused Him of being unjust and cruel. This is the same accusation tossed about here by some when faced with the fact that the final judgment will be "deluge by fire" (EGW), instead of by water as before. In other words, the source of this argument/accusation is identified for us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

No, it's not the same, or even close to being the same. Even if the Flood occurred as you suppose it did, it should be easy to see it's a far cry from what happened in the Flood, and what will happen in the judgment. In order for the Flood to be like what you think will happen in the judgment, God would have had to have taken supernatural action to prevent the people from dying. So as their lungs filled with water, God keeps them alive, for hours or days, so their suffering could continue. Had God done this, the Flood would have been similar to your idea of the judgment.

For the judgment fire to be like the flood, it would have to kill the wicked as a fire naturally kills people, just like the waters of the flood naturally killed people the way water kills people.