Why? It seems to me that's reasonable for me to want to have my positions presented correctly.



If you quote me, it helps me understand why you got the idea I got. It could be I didn't express something clearly, for example, in which case I can correct that. Of course, I don't need to know what I believe, but I need to know why you believe I believe what you're claiming I believe.

I said:

1.Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me."
2.Christ suffered the penalty of the law.
3.If the penalty of the law for sin were being burned alive, Christ would have been burned alive.
4.We see in Christ's death what the punishment of the law really is.

Do you disagree with any of these statements?

Regarding Jesus Christ's sufferings, I believe that Christ felt the anguish the wicked will feel in the final judgment.

Christ became sin for us. If He hadn't, He would not have suffered as He did.



If Christ became sin for us, and that has consequences, there's no need for an imposed punishment. His suffering, in this case, would have been due to the consequences of becoming sin for us.

And even if one were to assume the punishment was an opposed one, it certainly wasn't one of being burned alive.

That was me, not "M."


Are you saying that Christ's character became incongruent with God's character? That doesn't sound right to me.


The suffering you've been presenting is the suffering that comes from the realization that one's character is fatally different from God's character. I agree that such a condition would cause excruciating suffering. But I disagree that Jesus experienced such suffering, since I believe that Christ's character was ever in harmony with God's.


If we're talking about Jesus, it certainly wasn't the realization that His character was opposed to God's.

I don't understand this. I thought you were saying that the anguish the wicked will feel come from their disharmony with God. How can Jesus have such anguish?

I've been quoting the following, which discusses what your question is asking.

No, I'm not saying this was the reality, but Christ felt this way because of sin (More detail below).



But Christ took our sin. He experienced the suffering which comes as a result of sin.

Sermons 14 and 15 by A. T. Jones from the 1895 GCB discuss the ideas I've been sharing in depth. Here's an excerpt from Sermon 14.



Sermon 15 is especially nice, which discusses Christ in the Psalms.



Of course Christ's character was not out of harmony with God's. Yes Christ still suffered. Why? Your conclusion is that it must have been an imposed punishment. I've pointed out that Christ became sin for us. In doing so, it's possible that rather than suffering an arbitrary or imposed punishment, He simple experienced the suffering which sin causes.

What I pointed out additionally is that even if Christ did suffer an arbitrary, or imposed, punishment, it wasn't the punishment of being burned alive. Christ said, "Let their punishment fall on Me!" We know it fell on Christ. We know Christ was not burned alive.

This brings up an interesting question, which is why Christ suffered. I agree with what A. T. Jones brought out, that He suffered because of becoming sin for us. If Christ suffered because God arbitrarily did something to Him to make Him suffer, that tells us something about the nature of God and the nature of sin.

When dealing with the second death, an important question is what causes the death of the wicked. Is it an arbitrary, or imposed, punishment? Or is it the result of the choices the lost have made?



If the lost die because God kills them, the above doesn't make sense to me. The argument looks to be clear that it is NOT an arbitrary, or imposed, punishment that causes their death, but they die as the result of their own choice. We see in the second paragraph that if God had *left* Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished, but it would not have been apparent that their death was the inevitable result of sin. It would have appeared to have been something else. What could it have appeared to have been? It could have appeared to have been God's killing them, an imposed punishment. The death of Christ makes clear that the death which is the inevitable result of sin is not an imposed punishment -- not God's killing Christ -- but is caused by sin itself. If we ask "how is it that sin causes suffering and death?" we can study its effects by studying Christ's suffering in Gethsemane and Calvary.

Tom,

I do not disagree with any of the statements. However, I will point out that for #3, the penalty for sin was not being burned--it was death. Death is a broader category which, naturally, encompasses both death by crucifixion, and death by fire. The kind of death is not actually specified in the law, would you agree? Therefore, death by fire can certainly satisfy the requirement of "death."

Thus for #4, the part to which I agree is that "death" is "what the punishment [for breaking the law] really is." (I'm rewording the "of the law" part because there is no punishment for keeping the law, and to merely say "of the law" leaves that unclear.)

Tom, you have made it clear that you believe Jesus suffered the same way the lost will. However, Mrs. White does not take your side in this issue. The punishment of the lost will not be equal to Christ's suffering.

Christ died our death. His death could have atoned for any of the lost who would have accepted it--but alas, they chose the way of death, and must hence suffer for their own sins.



Christ's suffering was quite unlike that of the lost will be. Christ had physical pain, certainly. But it was not the primary source of His suffering. He suffered knowing how few of us would choose to be free of sin--how few of us would even feel sin to be a great evil. THAT was His source of suffering.

To me, there will be no one convincing me that the lost will have THIS kind of suffering. Such would be an impossibility. They are lost for the very fact that they could not in their lifetimes sense the evil of sin--why should their characters suddenly change? Nay. They are set in their ways. Mrs. White tells us that they will only be sorry that they were punished--not that they did wrong. Much less will they be sorry that so many (themselves included) did not comprehend the wickedness of sin, and choose to be free from it.

Furthermore, unlike Christ, I'm sure the lost will dread death.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

You're sure? Here's the first one:





Here's the second:



The third follows logically from the first two, and the fourth as well.

I'll respond to your comments later, but in this post I want to verify that you meant what you wrote, which is that you don't agree with any of the statements.

Tom,

I meant what I wrote. I guess it's my turn to ask that you quote me, though.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.