M: Tom, I agree with Dedication.

T: That's no surprise.

M: God knows the end from the beginning.

T: I agree with this; God knows the end of the road chosen from the beginning.

M: Not only what can be - but also what will be.

T: That's only possible if the future is fixed, or determined, before it happens.

M: Do you agree the GC will play precisely the way it is described in the Bible? Or, do you suspect some details might play out differently or not at all? For example, do you think it is possible the USA will not legislate and enforce the MOB, that instead she will continue to defend liberty of conscience?

T: I think things will play out as they've been described.

M: GC, I believe the future for God is like watching a rerun. The reason no one can alter what God has shared with us through the prophets is for the simple reason He is explaining what has already happened from His eternal perspective.

T: If things play out like a re-run, then there can be no risk. That should be easy to see. But the SOP has a number of statements which describe risk, such as that God allowed His Son to come at the risk of failure and eternal loss, and that heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. Neither of these statements makes sense if God is looking at things like a re-run.

Tom: "This seems to be implying that God's plan was that there would be sin, and if Lucifer thwarted this plan of God's, then God would have accomplished it by some other FMA."

D: No, no -- it was not God's plan that there would be sin. This whole sin experiment is terribly painful for God. But God in His foreknowledge KNEW that by creating FMA that there WOULD be sin.

You are right that there is no logical reason WHY perfect beings should sin. Sin has no excuse! To give a reason why perfect beings would sin, would be to excuse sin. There is no reason except that freedom to chose will eventual result in making a wrong choice -- not knowing what sin actually is, some FM being would try it.

God knew that if He created Free moral agents there would be sin.
He knew if he didn't create Lucifer, another would try it.

God's choices were:
1)Create Free Moral Beings -- and go through the sin/redemption plan.

2)Create pre-programed beings that could not sin, but also could not worship and love from free choice.

3) not create at all.

Tom: Otherwise it's hard to follow the example here of Jacob and Esau, and the point that God would have accomplished what He had promised by some other means.

D; God had declared that Jacob should receive the birthright, and His word would have been fulfilled in His own time had they waited in faith for Him to work for them. However, God also foreknew they won't wait, and He had to work to bring Jacob through his self inflicted detour to get him back on track.

M: God knows the end from the beginning.

T: I agree with this; God knows the end of the road chosen from the beginning.

M:Do you agree we do not agree on what this statement means?

M: Not only what can be - but also what will be.

T: That's only possible if the future is fixed, or determined, before it happens.

M:Why do you limit God?

Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.

Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others.

Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them.

M: Do you agree the GC will play precisely the way it is described in the Bible? Or, do you suspect some details might play out differently or not at all? For example, do you think it is possible the USA will not legislate and enforce the MOB, that instead she will continue to defend liberty of conscience?

T: I think things will play out as they've been described.

M:Why?

M: GC, I believe the future for God is like watching a rerun. The reason no one can alter what God has shared with us through the prophets is for the simple reason He is explaining what has already happened from His eternal perspective.

T: If things play out like a re-run, then there can be no risk. That should be easy to see. But the SOP has a number of statements which describe risk, such as that God allowed His Son to come at the risk of failure and eternal loss, and that heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. Neither of these statements makes sense if God is looking at things like a re-run.

M:Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed?" I've asked this before but don't recall the passages you cited.

"But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

Why did God create FMAs in spite of knowing they would sin and die and require redemption at the expense of Jesus' life and death? Why? - "For the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.

God's healing power runs all through nature. If a tree is cut, if a human being is wounded or breaks a bone, nature begins at once to repair the injury. Even before the need exists, the healing agencies are in readiness; and as soon as a part is wounded, every energy is bent to the work of restoration. So it is in the spiritual realm. Before sin created the need, God had provided the remedy. Every soul that yields to temptation is wounded, bruised, by the adversary; but whenever there is sin, there is the Saviour. It is Christ's work "to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, . . . to set at liberty them that are bruised." Luke 4:18. (Ed 113)

It was the will of God that Adam and Eve should not know evil. (Ed 23)

"The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. . . . {TMK 18.2}

"The plan for our redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam. It was a revelation of "the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal." Rom. 16:25, R. V. It was an unfolding of the principles that from eternal ages have been the foundation of God's throne. From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency. So great was His love for the world, that He covenanted to give His only-begotten Son, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16. {DA 22.2}

"The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)

Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Christ would have laid down His life, you may estimate the value of a soul.(COL 196)

Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.

Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others. Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. (EW 126, 127)

M: God knows the end from the beginning.

T: I agree with this; God knows the end of the road chosen from the beginning.

M: Do you agree we do not agree on what this statement means?

T: Yes. You understand this to mean that God sees the future like a re-run, implying it is fixed, or determined, or single-threaded, or like a movie, to use your analogy.

M: Not only what can be - but also what will be.

T: That's only possible if the future is fixed, or determined, before it happens.

M: Why do you limit God?

T: Why do *you* limit God? My view of God requires far more intelligence than yours. Under yours, God has nothing to manage. Things simply occur as God has always known they will. Under the Open View, God must manage events as possibilities become realities. We can see exactly this occurring in EW 126-127:


This description doesn't make sense from the standpoint you are suggesting. It depicts God's reacting to a crisis. You can see that in the three meetings Christ had with the Father. Under the scenario you are suggesting, this doesn't make sense. There would have been no crisis to manage, but simply the unfolding of an unfortunate event that God was certain was about to happen.

If things were as you are suggesting, it would make sense for God to have responded, "Don't worry. I was certain this would happen, and here's what we're going to do about it." There certainly wouldn't be any need for meetings with Christ to discuss what to do. Nor would it make any sense to depict what God was going through as a "struggle." Your viewpoint doesn't allow for this. God was struggling whether to do this or that. You can't have this in a re-run world. In a re-run world God simply does what He has foreseen He will do. You've never come to terms with this logical inconsistency.

M: Do you agree the GC will play precisely the way it is described in the Bible? Or, do you suspect some details might play out differently or not at all? For example, do you think it is possible the USA will not legislate and enforce the MOB, that instead she will continue to defend liberty of conscience?

T: I think things will play out as they've been described.

M: Why?

T: God knows the characters of the beings/institutions involved. It makes perfect sense to me that God can describe what would happen. God is (however I state this will be understated) incredibly intelligent, so there's no reason to think He would be unable to do so.

M: GC, I believe the future for God is like watching a rerun. The reason no one can alter what God has shared with us through the prophets is for the simple reason He is explaining what has already happened from His eternal perspective.

T: If things play out like a re-run, then there can be no risk. That should be easy to see. But the SOP has a number of statements which describe risk, such as that God allowed His Son to come at the risk of failure and eternal loss, and that heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption. Neither of these statements makes sense if God is looking at things like a re-run.

M: Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed?" I've asked this before but don't recall the passages you cited.

T: There are many things in inspiration which depict risk. That's all that needs to be established to make the re-run view logically impossible. For example, all heaven was imperiled for our redemption (COL 196). This makes no sense in a re-run world. Neither does EW 126-127. Nor DA 49, nor DA 131.

"But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

M: Why did God create FMAs in spite of knowing they would sin and die and require redemption at the expense of Jesus' life and death? Why? - "For the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

T: You're misreading her statement. This means that, in spite of the fact that sin should occur, this would not deter the Lord from establishing His throne in righteousness. It does not mean, as you appear to be suggesting, that God created FMA's He was certain would sin for the purpose of establishing His throne in righteousness.

The exaltation of the redeemed will be an eternal testimony to God's mercy. "In the ages to come," He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." "To the intent that . . . unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known . . . the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." Eph. 2:7; 3:10, 11, R. V. {DA 26.1}

Of special value to God's church on earth today--the keepers of His vineyard--are the messages of counsel and admonition given through the prophets who have made plain His eternal purpose in behalf of mankind. In the teachings of the prophets His love for the lost race and His plan for their salvation are clearly revealed. {ML 40.7}

During the years that were to follow the rending of the kingdom, Elijah and Elisha were to live and labor, and the tender appeals of Hosea and Amos and Obadiah were to be heard in the land. Never was the kingdom of Israel to be left without noble witnesses to the mighty power of God to save from sin. Even in the darkest hours some would remain true to their divine Ruler and in the midst of idolatry would live blameless in the sight of a holy God. These faithful ones were numbered among the goodly remnant through whom the eternal purpose of Jehovah was finally to be fulfilled. {PK 108.1}

The prophet's absolute faith in God's eternal purpose to bring order out of confusion, and to demonstrate to the nations of earth and to the entire universe His attributes of justice and love, now led him to plead confidently in behalf of those who might turn from evil to righteousness. {PK 461.1}

Through Jeremiah in Jerusalem, through Daniel in the court of Babylon, through Ezekiel on the banks of the Chebar, the Lord in mercy made clear His eternal purpose and gave assurance of His willingness to fulfill to His chosen people the promises recorded in the writings of Moses. That which He had said He would do for those who should prove true to Him, He would surely bring to pass. "The word of God . . . liveth and abideth forever." 1 Peter 1:23. {PK 464.1}

If the remnant people of God will walk before Him in humility and faith, He will carry out through them His eternal purpose, enabling them to work harmoniously in giving to the world the truth as it is in Jesus. He will use all --men, women, and children--in making the light shine forth to the world and calling out a people that will be true to His commandments. Through the faith that His people exercise in Him, God will make known to the world that He is the true God, the God of Israel. {9T 274.1}

The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {TMK 18.2}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}