It seems to me one could read Part 2 just fine on its own merits.

The fact that "there's more to it than what is being suggested" does not negate the fact that "what is being suggested" is true. Dead people know nothing, and cannot suffer. God will raise them from the dead, making it possible, even inevitable that they will suffer.

That God has a greater purpose to accomplish, making the suffering unavoidable, is a valid explanation. The problem is that you do not accept it as valid for physical pain caused by fire, but you accept it as valid for mental pain that is more terrible than fire.


And your more humane version is mental anguish to the point of eternal death, which Ty Gibson says is worse than fire.

I believe this is another case of you seeing only what you expect to see, in spite of the evidence. You expect the "mental anguish" view to be good, and the "literal fire" view to be bad. Even when Ty Gibson himself says that the mental anguish is worse than the fire, you still can't see that your "humane" argument is illogical.

Also, it seems to me that you believe physical pain is the worst thing that can happen to someone. Given the two options of being on fire for days and being unholy in the presence of God for days, you say that the fire is worse. I say being on fire would be insignificant compared to standing before God while clinging to sin.

“By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

Why do you think this insight explains why and how resurrected sinners live while separated and cut off from God?


Same question as above.


“Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. {DA 764.2}

Why do you think this insight explains why and how evil angels live while separated and cut off from God? Also, why do think God is their source of life? And, why do you think they can appear in the presence of God without being consumed to death? Finally, what does God do to prevent them from reaping the real results of sinning?


Why do you think the character of God does not kill the evil angels now but it will in judgment? How does God prevent His character from killing them now (this is different than asking, What does God do to prevent them from reaping the real results of sinning)?


If what you say is true, why, then, do heaven-bound people die and require resurrection? Also, why do resurrected sinners live in the presence of God’s character without perishing?


How do you explain the apparent contradiction?

“Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. {DA 753.2}

This insight does not address my question. Jesus didn’t die the second death. So, how can you say the wicked will die like Jesus did?


Do you think the wicked will survive the second death like Jesus did? If not, why, then, do you say they will die like Jesus did?


Do you think seeing God’s back is metaphorical? Or, did Moses literally see God’s back? If so, what can be discerned about God’s character by seeing His back? And, more importantly, why would seeing His face result in being consumed to death? Also, what would be the cause of death – mental or spiritual agony ending in cardiac arrest? If not, what?

When Jesus returns the Bible says His brightness will cause the flesh of the wicked to consume away. Listen: “And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.”

If you say Jesus fully revealed the character of God while He was here in the flesh. So, why do you think it didn’t cause sinners to consume away? Do you think running away and hiding from Him prevented His character from causing them to consume away? Or, do you think they were able to survive His presence because they failed to comprehend His character? Actually, do you think it is necessary to comprehend His character in order to suffer and die? Otherwise, if they are clueless, how can it kill them?

Why do you think admitting your guilt in judgment is “spiritual”?


Do you agree with the points?


What right does Jesus have to save penitent sinners and to destroy impenitent sinners?

Tom, your view of judgment skips several steps in the process. You have the wicked suffering and dying during arraignment. What kind of judgment causes the guilty to suffer and die when the evidence is presented? Perhaps this accounts for why you don't understand why they are still alive after judgment ends? That is, presenting the evidence is not what causes them to suffer or die. As in other court cases, sentencing follows the evidence and verdict. In cases involving capital punishment, such as the cases of the resurrected wicked, the execution of the death penalty requires the assistance of executioners. It doesn't make sense what you believe, that is, that merely presenting the evidence will execute them.

Arnold, I wrote a response to your post from home, but didn't post it, so will send it when I get back home.

I suggest you look at the part in DA 764 which is addressing your question.



The statement says:



You're asking what keeps them alive when the cut themselves off from life?



Do you think this is what is happening?



God is the source of all life. That's evident. What else would be the source of their life, if not God? "God is the fountain of life" is saying this.



Do they do this? (appear in God's presence)



According to DA 764, if God left them to reap the full result of their sin, they would perish, so, clearly, God is not leaving them to this.



You're talking about DA 108? I'd suggest looking at the passage, and consider the principles explained in the passage, and apply them as best you can. I'll quote the passage in question:



This explains what happens and why. For example, one principle mentioned is that Christ's presence made manifest their sin, and only the pure in heart could abide in His presence. She doesn't say specifically what would happen if they abode in His presence, but we know that they ran away as fast as they could, so it must have been unpleasant for them.



Eternal life is dealing with a quality of life, which we begin to experience now, and continues throughout eternity after the resurrection. Having eternal life does not mean you won't physically die.

Regarding the second question, you've asked that, and I've answered it.



The wicked have so hardened their hearts that they are unable to receive mercy. As Fifield put it:



This brings out that the problem is in the mind of the sinner. God doesn't change. God is forgiveness personified. He forgives not 7 times, but 70 times 7 (which means unlimited). But if one refuses pardon, eventually one hardens one's heart to the point of not being able to respond. This is the unpardonable sin.

So God continues to exercise the principles of mercy, kindness and love in the judgment, which is simply God acting in accordance with His character, which He always does, being just like Jesus Christ and not changing, but the wicked are unable to perceive the mercy, kindness and love of God. Sin causes them to believe things about God which are not true (Ty goes into this in what I posted previously).

I quoted from DA 753. What I mean is, this is what I said (what DA 753 says). I've also quoted from DA chapter 1, which says that Jesus suffered the death that was ours. I don't think I've said something other than this.



I think I've just said what the passages in DA said.



I've written what I think happened.



Look at DA 108 to see what this means.



What I quoted from Ty addressed this.



I think they ran away from Christ because they were uncomfortable being around Him. DA 108 addresses this. I assume your questions are dealing with the judgment of the wicked. A number of things happens during that time. As God's character is manifest, the wicked become aware of their own ugliness of character, as well as their sin in its true bearing, as well as their guilt. A combination of these things brings them to the condition described in GC 543, which says their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, as well as DA 764, which speaks of their separating themselves from God. So there's a number of things to fit together. All the statements need to be considered together.

Especially important is considering the cross, as all spiritual truth, to be properly understood, must be understood in the light of the cross. This is why I find the DA 764 passage especially helpful, since it explains the destruction of the wicked in the light of the cross.

I don't think I said anything about "admitting your guilt."



To some extent. I think the idea the wicked are unable to feel guilt or shame is totally wrong. Also I think you're coming from a perspective that the death of the wicked is unlike that which Jesus experienced, which seems to me to be very wrong.



Regarding the first part, the right that Jesus has to save penitent sinners, Christ created us. Also He is the One to whom the debt is owed, so He has the right to forgive debts He is owed.

Regarding the second part: