T: God knows the characters of the beings/institutions involved. It makes perfect sense to me that God can describe what would happen. God is (however I state this will be understated) incredibly intelligent, so there's no reason to think He would be unable to do so.

M: How can He know, thousands of years in advance, the exact choices and the precise outcomes before people are born?

T: If you mean possibilities, how could He not know? He knows everything.

M: If, according to you, God does not know in advance precisely which scenario will play out, how can He know with absolute certainty the USA will legislate and enforce the MOB?

T: Because in all the possibilities God foresaw, this happens.

M: And, why do you think God can know such things without violating their ability and freedom to choose as they please?

T: There's no logical problem in this scenario, because different things can happen. The logical problem occurs in your view because only one thing can happen.

M: Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed?" I've asked this before but don't recall the passages you cited.

T: There are many things in inspiration which depict risk. That's all that needs to be established to make the re-run view logically impossible. For example, all heaven was imperiled for our redemption (COL 196). This makes no sense in a re-run world. Neither does EW 126-127. Nor DA 49, nor DA 131.

M: Tom, you didn’t cite a Bible reference. Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed"?

T: As I said, there are many things in inspiration which depict risk. I stated a number of examples.

T: You're misreading her statement. This means that, in spite of the fact that sin should occur, this would not deter the Lord from establishing His throne in righteousness. It does not mean, as you appear to be suggesting, that God created FMA's He was certain would sin for the purpose of establishing His throne in righteousness.

M: What is His “eternal purpose”? The following passages make it clear that His “eternal purpose” is to redeem sinners and to restore them to righteous and true holiness in Paradise Lost. “The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity.” “Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created.” Why? "For the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

T: This implies sin was a part of God's plan. That can't be right.

The exaltation of the redeemed will be an eternal testimony to God's mercy. "In the ages to come," He will "show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." "To the intent that . . . unto the principalities and the powers in the heavenly places might be made known . . . the manifold wisdom of God, according to the eternal purpose which He purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord." Eph. 2:7; 3:10, 11, R. V. {DA 26.1}

Of special value to God's church on earth today--the keepers of His vineyard--are the messages of counsel and admonition given through the prophets who have made plain His eternal purpose in behalf of mankind. In the teachings of the prophets His love for the lost race and His plan for their salvation are clearly revealed. {ML 40.7}

During the years that were to follow the rending of the kingdom, Elijah and Elisha were to live and labor, and the tender appeals of Hosea and Amos and Obadiah were to be heard in the land. Never was the kingdom of Israel to be left without noble witnesses to the mighty power of God to save from sin. Even in the darkest hours some would remain true to their divine Ruler and in the midst of idolatry would live blameless in the sight of a holy God. These faithful ones were numbered among the goodly remnant through whom the eternal purpose of Jehovah was finally to be fulfilled. {PK 108.1}

The prophet's absolute faith in God's eternal purpose to bring order out of confusion, and to demonstrate to the nations of earth and to the entire universe His attributes of justice and love, now led him to plead confidently in behalf of those who might turn from evil to righteousness. {PK 461.1}

Through Jeremiah in Jerusalem, through Daniel in the court of Babylon, through Ezekiel on the banks of the Chebar, the Lord in mercy made clear His eternal purpose and gave assurance of His willingness to fulfill to His chosen people the promises recorded in the writings of Moses. That which He had said He would do for those who should prove true to Him, He would surely bring to pass. "The word of God . . . liveth and abideth forever." 1 Peter 1:23. {PK 464.1}

If the remnant people of God will walk before Him in humility and faith, He will carry out through them His eternal purpose, enabling them to work harmoniously in giving to the world the truth as it is in Jesus. He will use all --men, women, and children--in making the light shine forth to the world and calling out a people that will be true to His commandments. Through the faith that His people exercise in Him, God will make known to the world that He is the true God, the God of Israel. {9T 274.1}

The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent. Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created. {TMK 18.2}

The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity. Before the foundation of the world it was according to the determinate counsel of God that man should be created, endowed with power to do the divine will. But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness. God knows the end from the beginning. . . . Therefore redemption was not an afterthought . . . but an eternal purpose to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world but for the good of all the worlds which God has created. {AG 129.2}

M: You believe God knows all the possible choices and all the possible outcomes. Doesn't that mean our choices and outcomes are limited to the ones God foresees?

T: Yes. God sees everything that can possibly happen. We cannot do something which is impossible.

M: How is this significantly different than believing God knows precisely which choices and outcomes will play out?

T: Because more than one option is possible.

M:What good does it do God to know countless options if He has no idea which one will play out?

How can He make any future plans?

He would have to live in the moment, right?

M: Also, if knowing the future for God is like knowing history, do you think it robs FMAs of their ability and freedom to choose as they please?

T: In this case, the freedom FMAs have would be an illusion. One could not logically do anything different than what God has foreseen would happen, meaning that one cannot choose to do among different options. So this would contradict the incompatabilistic definition of free will. However, one could still do what one chooses to do, which is the compatibilistic definition, and it wouldn't contradict that.

[quote]M:Stating what happens after the fact in no way limits their options before the fact.

M: If knowing history doesn't rob them, why would knowing the future like history rob them?

T: The history has already happened, so it really is single-threaded. Knowing what you did doesn't impact your free choice because at the time you did what you did you were able to choose among different options. If it is known what you will do before you do it, then at the time you are choosing to do whatever you choose to do, there are not multiple options available that can actually be chosen, since you can't choose to do something different from that which is certain to happen. Only if it's not certain to happen can you logically choose among different options (in the sense of being able to effect one or the other of them).

M:Why do you think God's reality and our reality are identical so far as the future is concerned?

Why do you think God's ability to know the future like history alters our reality?

T: God knows the characters of the beings/institutions involved. It makes perfect sense to me that God can describe what would happen. God is (however I state this will be understated) incredibly intelligent, so there's no reason to think He would be unable to do so.

M: How can He know, thousands of years in advance, the exact choices and the precise outcomes before people are born?

T: If you mean possibilities, how could He not know? He knows everything.

M:No, I didn’t mean “possibilities”.

Also, according to you, God doesn’t know everything.

You believe God cannot know with absolute certainty precisely how the future will play out.

You think He merely knows the gazillion (bijillion, uncountabillion) ways it might play out. If this were true, then God would have no advantage not available to Satan.

M: If, according to you, God does not know in advance precisely which scenario will play out, how can He know with absolute certainty the USA will legislate and enforce the MOB?

T: Because in all the possibilities God foresaw, this happens.

M:How many possibilities involve the specific details described in the GC (I’m referring to the MOB crisis).

Do you think there are thousands of choices and outcomes that could play out in accordance with the specific details described in the GC?

Or, do you think only there’s only one possible option that can play out precisely the way it is described in the GC?

M: And, why do you think God can know such things without violating their ability and freedom to choose as they please?

T: There's no logical problem in this scenario, because different things can happen. The logical problem occurs in your view because only one thing can happen.

M:What do you mean different things can happen?

Do you think the future could play out differently than the detailed description given in the GC?

According to the view I believe in, the future will play out precisely the way it is described in detail in the GC.

M: Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed?" I've asked this before but don't recall the passages you cited.

T: There are many things in inspiration which depict risk. That's all that needs to be established to make the re-run view logically impossible. For example, all heaven was imperiled for our redemption (COL 196). This makes no sense in a re-run world. Neither does EW 126-127. Nor DA 49, nor DA 131.

M: Tom, you didn’t cite a Bible reference. Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed"?

T: As I said, there are many things in inspiration which depict risk. I stated a number of examples.

M:You still haven’t cited a Bible reference where God says, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed." Please do so. I need a specific instance, not a general principle. Principles are meaningless if no precedence or particulars exist to verify them.

T: You're misreading her statement. This means that, in spite of the fact that sin should occur, this would not deter the Lord from establishing His throne in righteousness. It does not mean, as you appear to be suggesting, that God created FMA's He was certain would sin for the purpose of establishing His throne in righteousness.

M: What is His “eternal purpose”? The following passages make it clear that His “eternal purpose” is to redeem sinners and to restore them to righteous and true holiness in Paradise Lost. “The purpose and plan of grace existed from all eternity.” “Redemption was not an afterthought, a plan formulated after the fall of Adam, but an eternal purpose, suffered to be wrought out for the blessing not only of this atom of a world, but for the good of all the worlds that God had created.” Why? "For the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness."

T: This implies sin was a part of God's plan. That can't be right.

M:God’s plan involved sin in the sense a detailed plan existed from eternity, prior to the creation of FMAs, to redeem sinners and to restore them to righteous in Paradise Lost. This is precisely how Ellen defines God’s “eternal purpose”. The many quotes I posted make it abundantly clear. Why do you think they mean something else?

Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race...(EW 126)

M: Stating what happens after the fact in no way limits their options before the fact.

T: Well, of course, but we're not discussing this.

M: Why do you think God's reality and our reality are identical so far as the future is concerned?

T: Because of how He has communicated with us. The only way we know anything about God is from His communication with us.

M: Why do you think God's ability to know the future like history alters our reality?

T: God's knowing the future like history, as you put it, wouldn't affect our reality in any way. It would *define* our reality, not alter it. It would define our reality as being one in which the future is not Open.

T: God knows the characters of the beings/institutions involved. It makes perfect sense to me that God can describe what would happen. God is (however I state this will be understated) incredibly intelligent, so there's no reason to think He would be unable to do so.

M: How can He know, thousands of years in advance, the exact choices and the precise outcomes before people are born?

T: If you mean possibilities, how could He not know? He knows everything.

M: No, I didn’t mean “possibilities”.

T: Then my answer to your question is that He doesn't. God knows the future as it is, and the future is comprised of possibilities, until these possibilities become realities. God doesn't know the future as not involving possibilities because the future does, in reality, consist of possibilities.

M: Also, according to you, God doesn’t know everything.

This is a lie! I've stated on many, many occasions, including several times on this very thread, that God knows everything, that He has perfect knowledge. This is a gross misrepresentation of my position. Please don't repeat this statement.

M: You believe God cannot know with absolute certainty precisely how the future will play out.

T: I don't disagree in any way with you in regards to God's ability to see the future. As I've explained many times, our disagreement is not epistemological but ontological. I disagree with you in regards to the nature of the future, not with God's ability to see it. A little thought should be sufficient to show that the view I hold requires far more intelligence on the part of God than the view you hold.

M: You think He merely knows the gazillion (bijillion, uncountabillion) ways it might play out. If this were true, then God would have no advantage not available to Satan.

T: Satan isn't nearly as intelligent as God. There is no basis for your assertion here.

M: If, according to you, God does not know in advance precisely which scenario will play out, how can He know with absolute certainty the USA will legislate and enforce the MOB?

T: Because in all the possibilities God foresaw, this happens.

M: How many possibilities involve the specific details described in the GC (I’m referring to the MOB crisis). Do you think there are thousands of choices and outcomes that could play out in accordance with the specific details described in the GC?

T: How would I know?

Or, do you think only there’s only one possible option that can play out precisely the way it is described in the GC?

T: Obviously there's more than one. We've been told that Christ could have come before now. Specifically, he could have come in the 1888 era. But He didn't. So, assuming the Great Controversy will play out as described in the book by that name, it is still future that it will do so, and God has foreseen that. So that's at least two. And EGW wrote before the 1888 era that Christ could have come "'ere now". So that's at least three.

M: Do you think the future could play out differently than the detailed description given in the GC?

T: Read what I wrote, please. I explained what I meant in detail.

M: Tom, you didn’t cite a Bible reference. Where in the Bible did God say, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed"?

T: As I said, there are many things in inspiration which depict risk. I stated a number of examples.

M: You still haven’t cited a Bible reference where God says, "I'm not certain Jesus will succeed." Please do so. I need a specific instance, not a general principle. Principles are meaningless if no precedence or particulars exist to verify them.

T: There is precedence and particulars to verify the principles I mentioned, many of them. I've cited them. There's also the SOP, which gives particulars on the very event you're questioning.

M: God’s plan involved sin in the sense a detailed plan existed from eternity, prior to the creation of FMAs, to redeem sinners and to restore them to righteous in Paradise Lost. This is precisely how Ellen defines God’s “eternal purpose”. The many quotes I posted make it abundantly clear. Why do you think they mean something else?

T: I've explained why. The way you are thinking, sin would be inevitable. It wasn't. It wasn't even expected. EW 125-126 makes this clear. This simply makes no sense from the viewpoint you are coming from. This is clearly presenting the event of man's fall as not something which God and Christ were responding to and making decisions in real time. God is even represented as struggling with His decision, which certainly would not be possible from the viewpoint you are coming from.

The incarnation of Christ is a mystery. The union of divinity with humanity is a mystery indeed, hidden with God, "even the mystery which hath been hid from ages." It was kept in eternal silence by Jehovah, and was first revealed in Eden, by the prophecy that the Seed of the woman should bruise the serpent's head, and that he should bruise His heel. {6BC 1082.4}

To present to the world this mystery that God kept in silence for eternal ages before the world was created, before man was created, was the part that Christ was to act in the work He entered upon when He came to this earth. And this wonderful mystery, the incarnation of Christ and the atonement that He made, must be declared to every son and daughter of Adam. {6BC 1082.5}

M: Stating what happens after the fact in no way limits their options before the fact.

T: Well, of course, but we're not discussing this.

M:I’m trying to discuss it, but you’re not. You seem to think it is impossible for God to know the future like history, as if He lacks the ability or power. Why do you think it is impossible for God to know the future like history?

M: Why do you think God's reality and our reality are identical so far as the future is concerned?

T: Because of how He has communicated with us. The only way we know anything about God is from His communication with us.

M:God has communicated to us the future like history. That’s what unconditional prophecy is all about. Just because He also speaks to us in the here and now it does not mean He has absolutely no idea exactly how the future will play out. God often spoke to people as if He didn’t know certain basic facts. For example, He pretended like He didn’t know where A&E were or if they had eaten the forbidden fruit.

7At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jer. 18:7-10)

M: Why do you think God's ability to know the future like history alters our reality?

T: God's knowing the future like history, as you put it, wouldn't affect our reality in any way. It would *define* our reality, not alter it. It would define our reality as being one in which the future is not Open.

M:You are assuming God is no different than us, that He cannot know the future like history, as if it would reduce our options to one.

And yet you don’t seem to think it matters that, according to you, God knows all the options and outcomes before we choose.

You seem to think it has no bearing on reality.

But all current choices and consequences render predicting future choices and consequences impossible. It creates infinite sequential and compounded unknown variables upon which it is impossible to construct a future.

If you have no idea exactly what 2 billion people are going to think, say, or do today it is impossible to predict what Jim, who isn’t even born yet, will think, say, or do 2 thousand years later.

PS - You've already admitted that if it were possible for God to know the future like history that it wouldn't effect our reality. Or, did I misunderstand you?

M: What good does it do God to know countless options if He has no idea which one will play out?

T: This is like asking, "What good is it if 2+2=4"? That's simply reality. It's not a matter of it's doing any good or not.

M: How can He make any future plans?

T: How do you make any future plans? He does it the same way you do, except for having perfect knowledge.

M: He would have to live in the moment, right?

T: Scripture is overwhelmingly clear that God experiences things in the moment, as we do. This is how He expresses Himself throughout history. He expresses Himself as thinking, struggling to make decisions, being frustrated, suffering emotions such as frustration and disappointment, all things which communicate His living in the moment, as you put it.

M: Also, if knowing the future for God is like knowing history, do you think it robs FMAs of their ability and freedom to choose as they please?

T: It's a logical contradiction, MM, as I've explained. Here's one way I've explained it.

1.If God is certain something will happen, then that thing will happen.
2.It's not possible to do something which God is certain you will not do.

This is not a matter of God's doing something to prevent you from doing something else, but of it's not being logically possible for you to do something different than that which God is certain you will do. This is not a logical problem if you hold to the compatibilistic definition, but it is if if you hold to the imcompatabilistic definition. That is, if you say:

1.Free will means that a person is free to do that which he chooses to do then there is not a logical contradiction to your position that God sees the future like a re-run. BUT if you say:

2.It's possible for an FMA to do either of two (or more) things, A or B, THIS is a logical contradiction. It's a logical contradiction because if God is certain the FMA will do A, it's not possible for the FMA to do B. It's not that God does something or somehow causes the FMA to not be able to do B, but that it causes a logical contradiction.

M: Stating what happens after the fact in no way limits their options before the fact.

T: Well, of course, but we're not discussing this.

M: I’m trying to discuss it, but you’re not. You seem to think it is impossible for God to know the future like history, as if He lacks the ability or power. Why do you think it is impossible for God to know the future like history?

T: For the same reason it's not possible for God to know you as me. You're not me. The future is not the past.

M: Why do you think God's reality and our reality are identical so far as the future is concerned?

T: Because of how He has communicated with us. The only way we know anything about God is from His communication with us.

M: God has communicated to us the future like history. That’s what unconditional prophecy is all about. Just because He also speaks to us in the here and now it does not mean He has absolutely no idea exactly how the future will play out. God often spoke to people as if He didn’t know certain basic facts. For example, He pretended like He didn’t know where A&E were or if they had eaten the forbidden fruit.

T: Jer. 18 explains how prophecy works:

M: You are assuming God is no different than us, that He cannot know the future like history, as if it would reduce our options to one.

T: No, I'm not assuming this. I'm pointing out that our difference is not epistemological but ontological. It has nothing whatsoever to do with God, and everything to do with what the future is like. We are not disagreeing with God's ability to see the future, but about what the content of the future is.

M: But all current choices and consequences render predicting future choices and consequences impossible. It creates infinite sequential and compounded unknown variables upon which it is impossible to construct a future.

T: Impossible for you or I, but not for God. The possibilities are not infinite, but finite. They are too many for you or I to handle, but not God. Also, God acts in the future, so He can foresee the impact which His own actions will have.

M: If you have no idea exactly what 2 billion people are going to think, say, or do today it is impossible to predict what Jim, who isn’t even born yet, will think, say, or do 2 thousand years later.

T: No it doesn't.

M:You wrote, “God knows the characters of the beings/institutions involved.” According to you, though, this is impossible.

There are too many unknown variables.

If your theory is right God cannot know their characters; instead, He can only know numberless possibilities. Consequently, it would be impossible for God to know that the precise details described in the GC will, without a doubt, play out exactly as recorded. He could, according to you, suggest that it might play out that way, but He couldn’t say with absolute certainty that it will.

M: Also, according to you, God doesn’t know everything.

T:This is a lie! I've stated on many, many occasions, including several times on this very thread, that God knows everything, that He has perfect knowledge. This is a gross misrepresentation of my position. Please don't repeat this statement.

M:Tom, your theory does not allow you to say without qualification that God knows everything.

At best you need to say, God knows everything He is capable of knowing.

You believe God is incapable of knowing precisely how the future will play out.

He cannot know it one minute from now and He certainly cannot know it 6000 years from now.

In other words, it was impossible for Him to state with absolute certainty, “It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Or, do you think the possibility of failure is inherent in such promises and prophecies?

7At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. 9And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.

The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth!(DA 49)

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)

Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. At the foot of the cross, remembering that for one sinner Christ would have laid down His life, you may estimate the value of a soul. (COL 196)

Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.

Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others. Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them.(EW 126-127)