MM, I've specifically pointed out that the lost do not die prematurely, before they've seen the evidence, and I've also quoted from GC, the last chapter, which speaks of all the lost recognizing that God has acted justly throughout time. Obviously they couldn't do this if they were dead.



They can't be alive after the judgment ends because their death is a part of the judgment.



Many of the disagreements I have with you I think stem from the idea that you appear to have that heaven is like our judicial system, and that God, in general, works in accordance with the principles of Western justice.

It might not, depending upon the circumstances, but in this I think the concepts being presented are mutually exclusive.



This isn't His design. They suffer because of the choices that are made. The same thing could be said about people that God allows to live in the here and now.



In neither case is God the cause of the suffering, which is the point. God neither imposes physical nor mental suffering upon the lost. They suffer because of the choices they themselves make. This point is reiterated time and again in DA 764.



That's not what he said. He said the flame which burns is worse than any physical flame. This is because of the emotional pain involved, because of the sense of loss, which Kevin H's post (especially Part 2) bring out.

God has created us to experience His love through Christ. Christ is the Desire of Ages, the vacuum in all of our souls, until we find Him. The wicked become conscious of this in the judgment, as well as of the true bearing of the decisions they have made and the character they have formed.

If you've lost someone dear, you have an idea of the pain Ty is speaking of, of the flame which burns that is more terrible than a physical flame. But this should not be twisted to try to make Ty say something he's not saying. He's saying the opposite of the idea that God is causing the wicked pain worse than that of burning them alive.



It seems to me clear that you're simply not understanding what Ty said (I'm sure he and I are on the same page regarding this). Regarding my expectations, I was a Calvinist believing in eternal hell before becoming an Adventist. If I saw things according to my expectations, I certainly wouldn't be seeing things the way I do now. I've followed the evidence where it has led me, which is to the overwhelming conviction that God is just like Jesus Christ.



Not at all! This was Ty's point! This is why he said the flame which burned was worse than any physical flame. There are things worse than physical pain, but the fact that this is true isn't carte blanche for imposing physical pain upon someone.



This isn't the point. To catch the point one must consider what *God* is doing. What actions does God take? What I'm taking issue with is the idea that God would take the action of burning people alive, something which is obviously inhumane, which is clearly seen that even in this sin-cursed earth such treatment is not allowed, and is universally considered torture.

In the view that Ty presented, and that I've presented, God is taking no arbitrary (i.e. imposed) action whatsoever to cause the pain of the wicked. It's true that He raises them to participate in the judgment, but He has no desire that they suffer or die. They suffer and die because of the choices they themselves have made and continue to make.

1. “As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed . . . all behold the enormity of their guilt.”
2. “They vainly seek to hide from the divine majesty of His countenance, outshining the glory of the sun . . .”
3. “The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah . . . Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.”
4. “Fire comes down from God out of heaven.”
5. “The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire.”
6. “Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished according to their deeds.”
7. “In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed.”


Tom, you didn’t answer my question – Do you think 4 and 6 are out of chronological order? In other words, do you think chronologically they happen before 3 and 5?

Also, why do you think the wicked continue to live after revisiting their sins?

And, do you agree that something happens that causes brain, blood, and breath functions to cease resulting in second death?

This is fun. Like a treasure hunt. I keep guessing and you keep refusing to tell me until I guess right. So, playing along, here’s my next guess: “God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.”

Did I find it? If so, in what way do you think the “existence” God gives them differs from the source of life they were separated and cut off from?


Yes. I believe the source of life is the same before, during, and after they revisit their sins in judgment, namely, the breath of life. True, God must also work tirelessly ensuring their life functions operate correctly. Do you think God does this during and after they revisit their sins in judgment?

I’m asking these kinds of questions because I’m trying to figure out why you think sinners are able to revisit their sins, one at a time during judgment, without dying prematurely. If I understand your view correctly, you think revisiting sin in the context of judgment is what will cause resurrected sinners to suffer and die.

You also believe revisiting one of the lesser sins will be sufficient to cause unimaginable suffering ending in second death. Naturally, then, I am curious as to who or what you think will prevent the vilest of sinners from dying prematurely after revisiting the first of their greater sins.


I think their source of life is the same as ours, namely, the breath of life. I also think God works to ensure their life functions operate correctly.


Thank you for answering my question.


According to you they do. In heaven, they willfully sinned in the presence of God without suffering or dying. Why do you think they were able to appear in the presence of God without being consumed to death?


Yes, Tom, we both agree God works to prevent them from reaping the real results of sinning – suffering ending in second death. But that’s not what my question is addressing. My question assumes this is an undeniable fact. What I want to know is what you think God does to prevent it from happening now? How does He stop sin from killing them now? And, how does He prevent sin from killing them prematurely as they revisit their sins, one at a time, in judgment?


“But wherever men came before God while willfully cherishing evil, they were destroyed.” Why didn’t this happen in heaven? Also, why do you think the character of God didn’t kill the evil angels while they were, according to you, willfully sinning in heaven in the presence of God? And, why doesn’t it kill them now? Why do you think it will kill them in judgment? If it hasn’t happened yet, why do you think it will in judgment?

Also, why do you think running and hiding from the physical presence of Jesus made it possible for them to abide in sin without experiencing second death?


I agree that eternal life begins the moment we experience the miracle of rebirth. Abiding in Jesus, walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, partaking of the divine nature, growing in grace and maturing daily in the fruit of the Spirit is the essence of eternal life. However, these things do not become a reality until the instant we consciously confess and crucify our old man habits of sin and embrace Jesus as our personal Savior. It is at this precise point that God implants within us the righteous traits and attributes of His character, which cannot cohabitate with sin.

So, the question remains – How can the “light of the glory of God”, which you insist can only refer to His righteous character traits, “slay the wicked”? They must first confess and crucify our old man habits of sin and embrace Jesus as our personal Savior before they can receive the character traits of God, therefore, why do think the character traits of God will slay them?


I couldn’t find the quote "mercy, kindness, and love" (you posted above) in the SOP in the context of judgment. Are you referring to the following passage? If so, why do you think it says mercy, kindness, and love “will be used”? What do you mean by “will be used”?

You’re not addressing my point. I’m not talking about suffering; instead, I’m asking about death. I know you think the resurrected wicked will suffer in the same way and for the same reasons Jesus did. But that’s not what I’m asking about. I’m asking – Do you think the resurrected wicked will die in the same way and for the same reasons Jesus did? If not, then is it safe to say we cannot learn what will kill the wicked by studying how and why Jesus laid down His life?


So you don’t think Moses literally saw God’s back. You think it was symbolic of Moses spiritually comprehending the character of God to a limited degree, to a safe level, to a level of degree that did not kill him. Here’s the story:


“No man [shall] see me, and live.” So, you think God’s voice, hand, face, and back are mere symbols. Is that what you believe? In other words, you think voice, hand, back, and face symbolize an increasing revelation and comprehension of God’s character? Moses was able to survive the first three levels or degrees of God’s character without being consumed to death. If so, why do you think it says Moses survived face-to-face encounters with God?

Also, you wrote, “We can't bear the glory (character) of God without a knowledge of Him.” Why do you think knowledge of God prevents the character of God from killing sinners? What is the difference between the two?


Oh good, the guessing game. Here we go: “At the second advent of Christ the wicked shall be consumed "with the Spirit of His mouth," and destroyed "with the brightness of His coming." Did I find it? If so, what is the difference between “consumed” and “destroyed”?


Well now, another guessing game. This keeps getting better. Did Ty say something to effect that Jesus dumb downed God’s character therefore it didn’t kill them? That is, did Jesus somehow filter out the elements of God’s character that kills sinners?


I am talking about when Jesus was here in the flesh. Earlier on this thread you suggested the following: “[The] divinity flashing through humanity may not have continued for a long enough time, or have been an intense enough revelation of God's character to cause their death. God wasn't intending that they should die.” (120989)

So, you believe that Jesus somehow dumb downed the revelation of God’s character to avoid killing them. Will God do something similar during judgment to prevent resurrected sinners from dying prematurely?

You also believe a combination of comprehending God's character and experiencing the full force of their sin and guilt in judgment cause them to voluntarily refuse their place in heaven and to physically cut themselves off from their only source of life. For the sake of discussion, though, what do you think would happen if they chose not to refuse their place in heaven or cut themselves off from their only source of life?

Here's what GC wrote:
If God's greatest concern was to minimize the suffering of the wicked, then leaving them dead is the most effective way. Don't you agree?

Therefore, since God will do something that will unavoidably result in excruciating pain for the wicked, there must be something He considers more important. Don't you agree?

Well, if that's the case, I could go for that. Consider this formulation: It isn't God's design that people literally burn, but it's just what happens when God reveals His unveiled glory to the wicked. God doesn't cause the fire, it just happens because of the choices the wicked themselves made. God does not impose this literal fire on the wicked, it just happens naturally. Had the wicked chosen to be made godly, they would not be flammable in God's presence. That God was the one who raised them from the dead, enabling them to experience such suffering, is irrelevant.

How's that? I just gave the "literal fire" view the same loophole that you gave the "mental anguish" view.

So how would your "not imposed mental anguish" be considered less painful or less suffering than the "not imposed literal fire"?

Basically, you're saying that literal fire is terrible and God would never allow such a thing because it is torturous. However, there is mental anguish that is "worse than any physical flame" that God will allow, yet that is not torturous.

Here's what you're saying, in outline:
X is very bad.
God will not allow X because it is very bad.
Y is worse than X could ever be.
God will allow Y.

That makes no sense.

I wonder if kland agrees with this. I haven't seen him for a while.

Regarding #121297, I wrote out what I think will happen.



I keep saying I don't have anything to add to what DA 764 says in regards to this. I'm not trying hide anything from you.



Why would this be any different than they're not dying prematurely before their life's history is being revisited? By the way, I've not said that there sins are revisited one by one, but that their life is reviewed. From what you write, it looks like God is fast-forwarding from one sin to the next. I've not said anything like this.



I've not said anything, as far as I recall, about "revisiting sin." I've spoken of their lives being revisited, and mentioned that this involves many things. I post from Kevin H., mentioning specifically Part 2, which goes into detail in regards to what I'm referring to.



I don't think I've written anything like this. I'm a bit puzzled how I'm communicating one thing, and you seem to be understanding another. Perhaps you could quote something I've written?



God prevents sinners from dying prematurely, by the same means He uses now.



I think it would be clearer to simply say that God is their source of life. This is what Ellen White wrote in saying that He is "the fountain of life."



You don't believe these angels sinned in God's presence? I don't see how that's possible.



I'm not understanding why you're asking this. I've not said this, right? So why do you think I think this?



He doesn't leave them to this.



He doesn't permit them to reap the full result of their choice.



This didn't happen in heaven, did it?



You disagree that the angels willfully sinned in heaven? If they didn't, how did they rebel?



I've answered this.



I didn't say this.



The inevitable result of sin is death. This resulted in Christ's "suffering the death that was ours" and suffering "the anguish the wicked will suffer when mercy no longer pleads for the guilty race. Regarding your question if we can learn what will kill the wicked by studying how and why Christ died, absolutely. That's what I've been saying. The SOP tells us that *all* truth can only be understood in the light of the cross. It's not a coincidence that the destruction of the wicked is discussed in the chapter "It Is Finished," which discusses what Christ's death accomplished. As explained, one of the things it accomplished is that God will be able to allow the wicked to experience the full result of their choice, which is death, without this being misunderstood as an arbitrary act of power on His part.



I wouldn't say they are "mere symbols," but, given that the earth is God's footstool, His feet would have to be very large. Did you notice it said that Moses knew God "face to face"? Yet God didn't reveal His face to Moses, only His backside.



This is hard to follow. Three levels or degrees of God's character? I don't know what this refers to. At any rate, I think what I wrote is clear.



I said, "We can't bear the glory (character) of God without a knowledge of Him." The reason I say this is because without a knowledge of God (i.e., as per John 17, not simply knowledge about God, but knowing God as Jesus speaks of in His prayer) we will misunderstand what is being revealed. Sin causes us to believe things about God which are not true.



The two what?



We've been through this. The light of the glory of God is referring to God's character. This is made clear by the very next sentence, which speaks of Christ as the revealer of God's character. She speaks of how only the pure in heart could abide His presence.



I'll repost the Ty post.



This seems to me to be an odd way of looking at things.



I've answered this.



I've quoted from the SOP regarding this. Ellen White wrote that "their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves." She also wrote that God is the fountain of life, and spoke of how the wicked cut themselves off from life. You write as if there were my ideas. You've also changed the words that she used into other words. Regarding your question, I'll quote from GC 542:



It seems to me this answers your question.

MM, here's the Ty post. The last couple of paragraphs in particular are what I was referring to.



Human perception of the divine character was first distorted in the hearts and minds of our original parents, Adam and Eve. The account given in Scripture is very enlightening.

Basically what happened was this: God’s archenemy, Satan, told Adam and Eve a two-pronged lie about God’s character. (1) God cannot be trusted (2) because He is totally self-serving and does not have your best interest at heart. Satan painted a new picture of God, and we became rebels by believing that dark portrait….

On the inner canvas of human imagination Satan painted God in his own ugly image, in the dark hues of dishonesty and selfishness. Because the temptation was woven out of a subtle misrepresentation of God’s character, the sin problem is far deeper than mere behavioral misconduct….

We now imagine our Maker to be someone He is not, and that distorted picture has deeply wounded our capacity to relate to God with love and trust…

Sin itself, by virture of what it is, has hidden God’s character from our hearts and minds. Because of sin, there are things we believe about God that are not true…

When, with sincere desire to know God, we allow our characters to be shaped by the light He gives, we place ourselves in a spiritual condition that makes further discernment of God’s character possible…Our perception of Him and our growing likeness to Him dovetail as one process….

If sin is cherished rather than given up in the light of God’s love, the light grows dim until darkness sets in. And when our eyes adjust to the darkness, we think we can see and end up believing that our darkness is the light…

In His wise providence, God has allowed the Scriptures to be composed in such a way that those who search its pages with an honest desire to know Him will see His true character shining through. Conversely, the same source of light is a snare of delusion to those who would rather fashion God in their own image in order to evade their personal need to be fashioned in His image.

The Bible is the story of God’s maintaining the vital harmony that must eist between justice and mercy as He endeavors to save fallen human beings. On the one hand, the righteousness of God’s character demands that He uphold the truth and justice of His eternal law. On the other hand, the mercy of His character causes Him to be equally desiours to save those who have rebelled against His law.

It may appear as though the Creator is in a dilemma of sorts. If He were to lay aside the just claims of His law in order to save sinners, sin would be excused and could never be conquered. Its influence would spread suffering and destruction thoughout the universe. If He were to uphold His law without extending mercy, on the other hand, not one fallen human could be saved. Because God loves sinners but at the same time hates sin, He must somehow maintain His justice while pouring forth His saving mercy.

Really God has no dilemma at all, for there is no conflict between the two dimensions of His character. No dichotomy exists between justice and mercy. They are both expressions of one harmonious character of love. Ultimately justice and mercy are so closely united that they are nearly indistinguishble. One does not cancel out the other. Both are eternal pirinciples that co-exist in the heart of God with perfect equilibrium.

Jesus came into our world to give the kiss of God, to wed justice and mercy together as one in human experience, to manifest the glory of God’s infinitely righeous and compassionate character. Of Him Scripture testifies:

“The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory [character], the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:14).

Notice here that Jesus is described as the embodiment of the Father’s character, a character complete in two vital, balancing qualities: grace and truth (which is the same as saying, mercy and justice). Jesus came to our world clothed with the garb of our humanity (the owrd became flesh) so that we could encounter God’s character and survive the stunning ordeal. In Christ we see the perfect holiness of God’s character subdued to a tolerable level by virture of His incarnation in the familiar environment of our own human nature.

The grace of God seen in Christ makes it possible for the truth of His holiness to be assimilated into our human experience in healing rather than destructive doses. If God were to revel the pure, unveiled truth of His justice without simultaneously bathing that revelaiton in mercy, the natural sense of condemnation inherent in our sin would destroy us at the psychological and emotional leve. In Christ, justice is temptered by mercy so that the sinner may bear its flawless glory. But be warned: a persistent rejection of God’s mercy places the soul in conflict with the claims of justice. And in that conflict, the sinner loses. Those who fully and finally cast aside God’s grace will find themselves facing the raw energy of justice with no way of escape.