Dedication, I'm not following you. It sounds like you believe not sinning is not possible. It also sounds like you believe the fruit of faith, righteousness and true holiness, is in reality contaminated with sin for one reason or another. Have I misunderstood you? Also, do you think the following passages describe a kind of personal polluted righteousness?

"Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as [Jesus] is pure. . . Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous." {1 John 3:3, 7}

"Christ is our pattern, the perfect and holy example that has been given us to follow. We can never equal the Pattern, but we may imitate and resemble it according to our ability. {TMK 265.2}

"He is a perfect and holy example, given for us to imitate. We cannot equal the pattern; but we shall not be approved of God if we do not copy it and, according to the ability which God has given, resemble it. {2T 549.1}

While they do not necessarily mean that converted people will continue to sin in ignorance, it definitely means that at least some converted people can and do have defects that need repentance. IOW, repentance is needed by converted people. Does that mean they sin? Yes, assuming that repentance is needed only for sin.

"We cannot equal the pattern"

Do you believe you can become so perfect you no longer need the righteousness of Christ to enable you to stand before a Holy God?

The key is surrender.
Placing the will under the will of God.
Of course we are to seek holiness, putting aside all known sin. But don't think there isn't anything else left in your life that needs correcting. There is always more -- more growth needed.

Beautiful quote in that lesson:

Do you think having defects, weaknesses, and imperfections is the same thing as indulging them and requiring repentance? We are admonished to overcome them, which means to prevent them from resurfacing, to subject them to a sanctified will and mind, to rein them in, to keep them under control. Overcoming them does not mean eliminating them so they no longer tempt or annoy us.

Also, where in the Bible or the SOP does it describe converted Christians successfully abiding in Jesus, successfully recognizing and resisting sin, self, and Satan, successfully growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit? Or, do all the descriptions assume they sin and repent, sin and repent, sin and repent? As far as I know, there is only one passage in the entire Bible where post-conversion sinning is described: 1 John 2:1, 2. And it says "if" not "when" they sin.

No. I'm sorry if I posted anything that led you to ask this question. The blood and righteousness of Jesus covers our confessed and crucified sins and our sins of ignorance while we are abiding in Him, growing in grace, maturing in the fruits of the Spirit. It does not cover unconfessed and uncrucified sins.


I'm still not sure what your answer is to the comments and questions above. Would you mind answering them? Also, the "correcting" and "growth" you mentioned above, is it a gradual process of sinning and repenting less and less often until we finally cease sinning? Or, is it a process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?

PS - Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying converted Christians are incapable of resurrecting the old man and reverting back to their former habits of sin or even altogether new sins. Indeed, it happens all too often. And, praise the Lord, 1 John 2:1, 2 makes it clear post-conversion sinning is pardonable. On the other hand, though, Heb 10:26, 27 makes it clear a certain type of sinning is unpardonable. However, my point is the promises of perfection do not envision or assume post-conversion sinning and repenting is normal, acceptable, and unavoidable. Do you agree?

1 John
2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

quote=Mountain Man

"I'm not following you. It sounds like you believe not sinning is not possible.


That depends on the definition of sin.
The rich young ruler asserted to Jesus that He had kept the commandments from his youth up. Jesus quietly reveals that He hadn't been keeping them; he had another god, his first love was his money.

We should come to the place where we no longer knowingly sin. As we come close to Jesus, sin loses it's attraction and power.

Yet, while all our Christian life we are to "be led by the Spirit" and "put to death the deeds of the flesh" or carnal nature, growing in grace and righteousness in Christ to spiritual maturity -- still , I don't believe there is ever a time when we can say "I've arrived, I no longer sin".

M: It also sounds like you believe the fruit of faith, righteousness and true holiness, is in reality contaminated with sin for one reason or another.

Our faith, righteousness and holiness is always laced with sin. Even our prayers,



MM: Have I misunderstood you? Also, the "correcting" and "growth" you mentioned above, is it a gradual process of sinning and repenting less and less often until we finally cease sinning? Or, is it a process of maturing in the fruits of the Spirit?

D: The growth process is the Holy Spirit leading us. When we first come to Christ and accept Him, our lives have MANY wrong habits and unChristlike characteristics ingrained that are contrary to His will. The Bible paints a pretty ugly picture of the putrid condition of humanity (Romans 3) The church usually points out the most obvious ones, which (if the person is genuinely wanting to follow Christ) are put away.

Now the person is "acceptably righteous" to church standards, and many settle down in false complacency.
But the Holy Spirit doesn't stop there and hopefully we don't either. Little by little He points out all the dirty corners in our lives (not all at once, or we would dispair!) When those habits are corrected, He moves on to the next dirty corner. Some corners are cleaned out quickly, some take more time. We may think we've "purified ourselves" at any point in the "growth", but if we saw ourselves as God sees us we realize we are still filled with sinful tendencies and ingrained habits.

The promise is -- as long as we are being led by the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to help us "put to death the deeds of the flesh" that he brings to our attention, we are accounted PERFECT thanks to the righteousness of Christ (not our righteousness.)

Salvation by faith is about laying in the dust the glory of man and giving all the glory to Christ.

MM: - Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying converted Christians are incapable of resurrecting the old man and reverting back to their former habits of sin or even altogether new sins. Indeed, it happens all too often. And, praise the Lord, 1 John 2:1, 2 makes it clear post-conversion sinning is pardonable. On the other hand, though, Heb 10:26, 27 makes it clear a certain type of sinning is unpardonable. However, my point is the promises of perfection do not envision or assume post-conversion sinning and repenting is normal, acceptable, and unavoidable. Do you agree?


D: Do you believe that at conversion all sinful habits just drop away? Does a converted person just stop sinning at the point of conversion (unless he reverts back)?



I think what you are against is falling into the SAME sin again and again and repenting of that same sin again and again. No, that should not be our experience.

However, I do not agree that a converted person no longer needs to do much repenting. The closer we come to Jesus the deeper should be our repentance as we see more clearly the exalted holiness of His character, and discern more accurately the malignant nature of sin.

Yes, we can have victory over sins, but the Holy Spirit will reveal the next sinful habit or unChristlike character trait when the last one is finally conquered. There is no point where we can say "I've arrived" I am perfect in my own righteousness.
We are perfect only in Christ's righteousness.







Hebrews
10:26 For if we sin wilfully

This isn't speaking of unknown sin.

According to the sacrificial system, there was no sacrifice for any sin except for sins of ignorance. As I have explained elsewhere, even the "willful" sins are still "sins of ignorance," because we would not commit them if we were not so ignorant.

The difference between us and the fallen angels is essentially the difference between "sins of ignorance" and "sins of knowledge." Both can be either willful sins or inadvertent ones--but the term "ignorance" implies that the sin is done without full knowledge of the truth. "Willful" simply means the thing is done by choice. One can be ignorant, and still choose, for ignorance does not remove the freedom of choice factor.

Every sin we do is a sin of ignorance, as per the sacrificial system. Otherwise, how would one know when to offer the sacrifice if he or she did not realize/know/recognize his/her sin? The sacrifices were commanded on the condition of sin--not merely on a daily basis "just in case." Therefore, the sin must be known--and if we take the view that this could only imply sins which were afterward pointed out by someone, then there would be a great body of sins which were "knowingly/willfully" committed which would have been unatoneable by sacrifice. In this case, one might truly say that there is no forgiveness for willful sin.

However, God sees that we are ignorant. Even our "willful" sins are forgivable on that basis. We cannot be set free until we know the truth. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 17:17).

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.