I should have asked, Do you think it means they are sinning? If so, does it require the application of the benefits of Jesus' atoning blood? And, are they sinless, free of sinning or the stain of sin, after their earthliness is consumed?

Actually, I believe sin the transgression of the law, and that the law encompasses our thoughts, feelings, motives, words, and deeds. Nothing is overlooked. At any rate, it sounds like you believe all obedience is stained with sin. All I’m trying to do here is understand what you believe.


Yes, we are to trust in His merits – not ours.


Yes, it is far better to focus on Jesus.


I believe the basis of RBF is twofold, 1) what Jesus does for us in heaven, and 2) what Jesus does in and through us on earth.


True, we must not “worry” about perfection or coming short of the glory of God; however, I do believe we must labor, agonize, wrestle, and strive to cooperate with God and overcome as Jesus overcame. I like how Ellen put it:


It is difficult for me to read inspired insights like this and conclude everything we think, say, or do, while abiding in Jesus, while partaking of the divine nature, is stained with sin. Do you see what I mean?

This is a passage pertinent to this topic:

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat." {1SM 344.2, 3}

Rosangela, do you think Ellen is saying "the religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers" stained with sin? Or, do you think she is saying they must ascend mingled with Jesus' righteousness to be acceptable to God?

Mike, she says that "they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God." So I believe the first option is true - that is, they are stained with sin.

Is "stained with sin" the same thing as sinning? That is, are they guilty of sinning? For example, are they guilty of sinning each time they confess a sin?

Also, do you think the expression "their earthliness must be consumed" (GC 621) implies they are sinning? If not, what do you think it means?

The following passages make it difficult to believe the obedience and righteousness of the saints is stained with sin or equivalent to sinning. Ellen White likens it unto the obedience and righteousness of Jesus. Listen:

The Lord requires perfection from His redeemed family. He expects from us the perfection which Christ revealed in His humanity. (CG 477)

His life and character were the unfolding or representation of the perfection of the character that man may attain by becoming a partaker of the divine nature, and overcoming the world through daily conflicts. (FLB 114)

Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him. His perfect humanity is that which all His followers may possess, if they will be in subjection to God as He was. (DA 664)

But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God’s precepts. (COL 314)

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us “partakers of the divine nature,” and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. (MH 180)

Their obedience (as everything else which comes from sinners) is imperfect, tainted with sin, and cannot be accepted by God without the merits of Christ's blood.

"When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit." {FW 50.1}

Luther refers to this when he says:

"XIII. How One is Justified before God, and of Good Works.
What I have hitherto and constantly taught concerning this I know not how to change in the least, namely, that by faith, as St. Peter says, we acquire a new and clean heart, and God will and does account us entirely righteous and holy for the sake of Christ, our Mediator. And although sin in the flesh has not yet been altogether removed or become dead, yet He will not punish or remember it.
And such faith, renewal, and forgiveness of sins is followed by good works. AND WHAT THERE IS STILL SINFUL OR IMPERFECT ALSO IN THEM SHALL NOT BE ACCOUNTED AS SIN OR DEFECT, EVEN [AND THAT, TOO] FOR CHRIST'S SAKE; but the entire man, both as to his person and his works, is to be called and to be righteous and holy from pure grace and mercy, shed upon us [unfolded] and spread over us in Christ. Therefore we cannot boast of many merits and works, if they are viewed apart from grace and mercy, but as it is written, 1 Cor. 1, 31: He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord, namely, that he has a gracious God. For thus all is well. We say, besides, that if good works do not follow, faith is false and not true" (The Smalcald Articles).

At some point, Christ ceases His work in the Sanctuary, doffing priestly robes in the place of kingly ones; the 144,000 will stand before God without a mediator. Hence the above description must be a temporary one, until the time when Christ completes His work in the Sanctuary.

This is a bit off-topic, and I'm going to go a little further off-topic. MM, forgive us for we know not what we do.....


When we have no mediator, then the purification by Christ's blood/righteousness will stop. At that point, if the prayers of true believers are still effective, either God's standard will change or whatever it is that is causing defilement will have ceased. If we believe that God's standard does not change, we must conclude that whatever causes the defilement will stop.

Look at that quote, and find what it is that causes the defilement. So as not to give it away, I'll call it X. So, when Christ's mediation stops, X will be gone. Think about the ramifications of that concept.