Tom, the reason I didn’t add to Sister White’s insight regarding Rev 12:10 is because she explained it perfectly. Satan was cast down in that he no longer elicits the sympathies of unfallen angels. He wasn’t cast down from heaven again. He was cast out once and forever the first time. He has never been admitted again since.

None of the samples you listed, in my opinion, improve upon the basic weakness of the title of this thread. Why? Because they assume too much. I realize you are uncomfortable with admitting that there are certain things about the great controversy and the plan of salvation that we cannot explain totally and completely but, and I hate to repeat it, that’s just the way it is. A good way to word this question would be – Why did God, knowing that they would sin and rebel, create Satan and Adam?

Just exactly why God chose to create FMAs, when He knew ahead of time which ones would rebel and fall into sin, is one of those unexplainable mysteries. Regarding this particular mystery Sister White wrote, “But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” AG 129.

According to this insight, one of the reasons why God chose to create them, in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall and rebellion, was because “the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” I realize this answer isn’t as satisfactory as you would like, but it is the only one God has seen fit to provide, at least for the time being. I assume God will give us deeper insights once we get to heaven, but for now we must trust that He is doing everything right, even though we cannot explain everything perfectly. That’s what faith is for.

Your suggestion that sin was by no means inevitable implies God is clueless, haphazard, and shortsighted. It also flies in the face of Sister White’s inspired insights, which have been posted repeatedly on this and other threads. “The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent.” TMK 18. “From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.” DA 22.

Mike: Tom, the reason I didn’t add to Sister White’s insight regarding Rev 12:10 is because she explained it perfectly. Satan was cast down in that he no longer elicits the sympathies of unfallen angels. He wasn’t cast down from heaven again. He was cast out once and forever the first time. He has never been admitted again since.

Tom: The point is that Satan's banishment from heaven was not because of an arbitrary decree based on force, but was a revelation of truth. This is example of the principles God uses to win the Great Controversy. It's not that Satan wanted to go to heaven, but God is stronger, so He does not permit that, but it is that Satan has no voice. No one wants to listen to him. He has been unmasked. Everyone knows who he is, and they want nothing to do with him. That's why Satan is not permited into heaven.

God uses the same principles illustrated in the banishment of Satan to win the Great Controversy. Not by force, but by a revelation of love and truth.

Mike: None of the samples you listed, in my opinion, improve upon the basic weakness of the title of this thread. Why? Because they assume too much.

Tom: I have no idea what you're referencing here.

Mike: I realize you are uncomfortable with admitting that there are certain things about the great controversy and the plan of salvation that we cannot explain totally and completely but, and I hate to repeat it, that’s just the way it is.

Tom: This is really mistating my position. Hopefully not intentionally. I never said anything like what you wrote. You should quote something directly I wrote.

Here's my position. There are things about the Great Controversy, such as why Jesus had to die, why the wicked will die, how the Great Controversy will be won, what the Great Controversy is all about, of which God has communicated to us a tremendous amount of information. IMO we are really not understanding what He would have us to do if we say of these things of which God has revealed a tremendous amount of information that we can't understand these things and that's just the way they are. It is the argument of the enemy that God is arbitrary, and that's the direction these types of remarks tend towards -- a God who demands obedience on the basis of authority under threat of force, rather than a God who appeals to reason and proves His case on the basis of evidence.

I hope this makes my position clear.

Mike: A good way to word this question would be – Why did God, knowing that they would sin and rebel, create Satan and Adam?

Just exactly why God chose to create FMAs, when He knew ahead of time which ones would rebel and fall into sin, is one of those unexplainable mysteries.

Tom: You're mischaracterizing reality here. The mystery is why sin should arise at all. If sin arose because it was inevitable, as you assert, there's no mystery at all. Sin came about because God created beings which were destined to sin. Where's the mystery?

Mike: Regarding this particular mystery Sister White wrote, “But the defection of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent, and yet it did not deter Him from carrying out His eternal purpose; for the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” AG 129.

Tom: One of the principles in studying inspiration to cosider all that was written regarding a particular topic. Regarding the nature of the future, for example, we have the following quotes:

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life's peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.
The heart of the human father yearns over his son. He looks into the face of his little child, and trembles at the thought of life's peril. He longs to shield his dear one from Satan's power, to hold him back from temptation and conflict. To meet a bitterer conflict and a more fearful risk, God gave His only-begotten Son, that the path of life might be made sure for our little ones. "Herein is love." Wonder, O heavens! and be astonished, O earth! (DA 49)

Never can the cost of our redemption be realized until the redeemed shall stand with the Redeemer before the throne of God. Then as the glories of the eternal home burst upon our enraptured senses we shall remember that Jesus left all this for us, that He not only became an exile from the heavenly courts, but for us took the risk of failure and eternal loss. Then we shall cast our crowns at His feet, and raise the song, "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Rev. 5:12. (DA 131)

Remember that Christ risked all. For our redemption, heaven itself was imperiled. (COL 197)

These statements show the future is not fixed. God reveals to us that He did not have know with certainty that Christ would succeed, nor did Christ know. Both the Father and Son took a risk for our redemption. This thought should thrill our souls as it did Ellen G. White's (note carefully what she wrote after expressing the thought that God/Christ took a risk)


In addition, there is the description of Christ coming before the Father 3 times, struggling to reach the decision to allow Christ to come for our redemption in EW 127, which is unitelligible given your point of view (How could God "struggle" if the future is like a T. V. rerun?)


Mike: According to this insight, one of the reasons why God chose to create them, in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall and rebellion, was because “the Lord would establish His throne in righteousness.” I realize this answer isn’t as satisfactory as you would like, but it is the only one God has seen fit to provide, at least for the time being.

Tom: On what basis to you assert this? Is there some inspired statement where God says, "This is why I chose to create man, and this is the only reason I see fit to provide?" Also your premise is false, as has been shown above.

Mike: I assume God will give us deeper insights once we get to heaven, but for now we must trust that He is doing everything right, even though we cannot explain everything perfectly. That’s what faith is for.

Tom: Faith is for apprehending the truth about God. God would have us follow Him on the basis of evidence.

quote:

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God does not force the will or judgment of any. He takes no pleasure in a slavish obedience. He desires that the creatures of His hands shall love Him because He is worthy of love. He would have them obey Him because they have an intelligent appreciation of His wisdom, justice, and benevolence. And all who have a just conception of these qualities will love Him because they are drawn toward Him in admiration of His attributes. (GC 541)

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Mike: Your suggestion that sin was by no means inevitable implies God is clueless, haphazard, and shortsighted.

Tom: Your statement here is not very charitable.

My position is based on inspiration and logic. Here's the statement from inspiration:

quote:

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It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence.

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Is sin was inevitable, then it is not impossible to give a reason for its existence. Sin exists because God created beings He knew would sin. Where's the mystery?

That I can provide such a simple explanation for sin's existance proves your position is false.

Mike: It also flies in the face of Sister White’s inspired insights, which have been posted repeatedly on this and other threads. “The fall of man, with all its consequences, was not hidden from the Omnipotent.” TMK 18. “From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate. God did not ordain that sin should exist, but He foresaw its existence, and made provision to meet the terrible emergency.” DA 22.

Tom: It's an error to take consider only certain snippets and not consider all that an inspired author has written on a theme. I have shown above that the Spirit of Prophesy did not view the future as fixed. Neither does Scripture.

The following statements, for example, show that God at different times changed His mind, something which would be impossible if your view were correct:

quote:

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At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it. (Jer. 18:7-10)


So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel; and seventy thousand persons fell in Israel. And God sent an angel to Jerusalem to destroy it; but when he was about to destroy it, the Lord took note and relented concerning the calamity; he said to the destroying angel, "Enough! Stay your hand." The angel of the Lord was then standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. (1 Chron. 21:14, 15)


In those days Hezekiah became sick and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz came to him, and said to him, "Thus says the Lord: Set your house in order, for you shall die; you shall not recover." Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord: "Remember now, O Lord, I implore you, how I have walked before you in faithfulness with a whole heart, and have done what is good in your sight." Hezekiah wept bitterly. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the Lord came to him: "Turn back, and say to Hezekiah prince of my people, Thus says the Lord, the God of your ancestor David: I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; indeed, I will heal you; on the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord. I will add fifteen years to your life. I will deliver you and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; I will defend this city for my own sake and for my servant David's sake." (2 Kings 20:1-6)

Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!". (Jer. 26:19)

And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people. (Ex. 32:14)

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Here's another statement showing God planning for the future with contingency plans:

quote:

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1 Then Moses answered, "But suppose they do not believe me or listen to me, but say, "The Lord did not appear to you.' " 2 The Lord said to him, "What is that in your hand?" He said, "A staff." 3 And he said, "Throw it on the ground." So he threw the staff on the ground, and it became a snake; and Moses drew back from it. 4 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Reach out your hand, and seize it by the tail"—so he reached out his hand and grasped it, and it became a staff in his hand— 5 "so that they may believe that the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you." 6 Again, the Lord said to him, "Put your hand inside your cloak." He put his hand into his cloak; and when he took it out, his hand was leprous, F8 as white as snow. 7 Then God said, "Put your hand back into your cloak"—so he put his hand back into his cloak, and when he took it out, it was restored like the rest of his body— 8 "If they will not believe you or heed the first sign, they may believe the second sign. 9 If they will not believe even these two signs or heed you, you shall take some water from the Nile and pour it on the dry ground; and the water that you shall take from the Nile will become blood on the dry ground."

Note God said, "They MAY believe the second sign." This statement makes no sense given your view.

In addition to changing His mind, and making contingency plans for the future, and undertaking risk (all of which is impossible if the future is as a T.V. rerun), inspiration also reveals:

* Things happen which God does not expect.
* God regrets how things turn out.
* God gets frustrated.
* God tests to know personal/corporate character.
* Christ's coming can be hastened and delayed.

None of these things makes sense given your view, at all are expressed many times in Scripture.

Finally your view speaks very ill of God's character. Why would God create condemned angels or people? You have no answer for this question, as you have admitted, saying that's just the way it is and we can't understand it.

But God has answered this question, and the explanation is so simple even a child can understand it.

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Tom, I am fully agreed with all your posts above.

I fully agree with love being the factor. God is love. But I addressed a different angle here because of Mike's view of God, and his view of FMB creation being somewhat animalistic. If love is considered on a carnal basis and/or legislated basis as Mike proposes, ie "obedience to law" we wind up with something fake.

We are trying to get to the bottom of this by uncovering the nature of the spirit of the perspective that sin was inevitable.

Mikesaid:

quote:

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Does God's foreknowledge rob Him of His freedom to choose? Not at all. Rather, it accounts for His ability to rule infallibly. When endowed with foresight, who needs hindsight? Certainly not God. That's why we can trust His promises concerning the future.

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Has God been reduced to having to choose between alternatives, or is he the living creator of the living? Who has presented him with the alternatives? If God knowingly created one who will behave or do such and such, then that person was not sovereign and thus not in God's image. He was created an animal. Animals are created with programmed functions. They are not moral.

"Moral" has to do with judging right or wrong. FMB is a Sovereign judge of right and wrong. Mike you have not commented on this.

Satan is a Sovereign judge of right or wrong, or else he could never have come up with his form of righteousness (sin) which brings forth death.

God is Sovereign Judge of right and wrong, and his form of righteousness gives life.

It is necessary to be sovereign in order to be able to Love (not as an animal but as a person). In order to be able to love as a sovereign person there is the necessity of judgment. In the end, it is a judgment (spirit) of hate or love what it is about.

Tom, the Bible says there was “war in heaven” and Satan and his followers were forcibly cast out of heaven. “Neither was their place found any more in heaven.” When Adam and Eve sinned, they were forcibly “driven out” of the Garden, and a sword wielding angel was stationed at the gate to prevent them from ever entering again. Neither angels or man left voluntarily. They didn’t leave because they felt uncomfortable around God. The Bible is clear about what happened and why.

You suggested other titles for this thread, and I suggested one. I feel your suggestions assume too much, namely, that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin. Our different views of God’s foreknowledge is going to prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this subject. I believe God foresaw the existence of sin, but you don’t believe He did. We’re gridlocked.

You seem to believe the Bible and the SOP explains everything there is to know about why Jesus had to die. I disagree. “The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” DA 494. Again, we’re gridlocked.

Again, just because God foresaw the existence of sin, the fall of Satan and Adam, and made provisions for it in advance, it does not explain why they choose to sin. It isn’t a mystery to God, but He hasn’t chosen to reveal everything He knows about it. “There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed…” GC 492. Again, we’re gridlocked.

John B., yes, Adam and Eve were able, in and of themselves, to reproduce the character of God. "It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous." SC 62.

So, yes, originally man was, in one sense, sovereign judge of right and wrong. But the law of God was his guide and standard. He embraced the will and way of God as his own and chose to live accordingly. But sin and fallen nature makes all of this impossible. We must be born again and partake of the divine nature in order to obey the law of God. Not like brute beasts, but like Jesus.

Mike, God was not looking for servants to carry out his Law or Command when he created man. Or else - chop.

God was creating those with whom he could fellowship in spirit and who could embody his glory.

Try it from this angle.

Angels are ministering spirits. Spirits that influence spirit. Satan as an archangel had great influence (authority) over other angels – spirits. When his error was brought out he was dethroned or expelled from his position of influence (authority).
His word was no longer a command. Yet his challenges, accusations, were still an unanswered question. These remained a question in minds of angels. To that degree he and/or his angels had access even to being able to present himself before God.
It was not until the cross that his allegations were answered and the questions settled in the minds of the angelic host. Satan was now cast out, banished out of their spirit mind. And there was great joy in heaven.

Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. (DA 49)

This topic is not dealing with what the condition of man is after sin.
This topic is dealing with the question of what was God creating and why.

Okay. Are we ready now to answer the question - Was sin possible before God created free moral agents?