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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12174
02/03/05 04:14 PM
02/03/05 04:14 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: The question is misleading because the obvious answer (i.e., no) implies sin was not inevitable. Tom: Why is the answer obviously "no."? The way you are putting things, I would think the answer would be obviously "yes." If sin was inevitable, and God chose to create things the way He did when He could have done otherwise, then how could it *not* have been God's intention that sin exist? Mike: Just because it wasn't God's desire for sin to exist doesn't mean it wasn't inevitable. Tom: Sure it does. If it was inevitable, and God could have done things differently but chose not to, then God *chose* to do things that led to sin being inevitable. What you are asserting would logically require that God chose to do something He did not intend, which is logically absurd. Mike: The reason it was inevitable is because God foresaw its existence. He created FMAs in spite of the fact He knew in advance they would choose to sin and rebel. He could have chosen NOT to create those particular FMAs without violating free will. Just exactly why God chose to create the ones He knew would sin and rebel is a mystery. Tom: That you presuppositions lead to absurd conclusions show they can't be true. If God chose to create things in a way that made sin inevitable when He could have chosen to create things another way where sin would not have been inevitable makes God responsible for the entrance of sin. There's simply no getting around that. In fact, you admit as much by calling God, "the author of death." and this: quote:
Giving Satan the credit for creating sin and death robs God of His power and authority and His sovereignty.
By saying this you are saying that God created sin. Now if God created sin, He is responsible for it and He intended for it to happen.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12175
02/03/05 05:34 PM
02/03/05 05:34 PM
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Mike Lowe said in his post: quote:
The question is misleading because the obvious answer (i.e., no) implies sin was not inevitable.
I don't see how "Was it God's intention that sin exist?" would imply that sin was not inevitable.
Conversely, sin being inevitable doesn't imply that God intended that sin exist.
Sin happened. God in His foreknowledge knew it would happen and prepared for it. That's where the Plan of Salvation entered into the picture that interestingly enough, if I remember correctly, sent Lucifer onto his path of rebellion, as he wasn't privy to the formation of this plan amongst the Godhead.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12176
02/03/05 06:01 PM
02/03/05 06:01 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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The idea that sin was inevitable does not fit into revelation for many reasons, but I'll provide just one. Here's is the description of what happened in heaven after man fell: quote:
Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, "He is in close converse with His Father." The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right.
Then joy, inexpressible joy, filled heaven, and the heavenly choir sang a song of praise and adoration. They touched their harps and sang a note higher than they had done before, because of the great mercy and condescension of God in yielding up His dearly Beloved to die for a race of rebels. Then praise and adoration was poured forth for the self-denial and sacrifice of Jesus, in consenting to leave the bosom of His Father, and choosing a life of suffering and anguish, and an ignominious death, that He might give life to others.
Said the angel, "Think ye that the Father yielded up His dearly beloved Son without a struggle? No, no." It was even a struggle with the God of heaven, whether to let guilty man perish, or to give His darling Son to die for them. Angels were so interested for man's salvation that there could be found among them those who would yield their glory and give their life for perishing man. "But," said my accompanying angel, "that would avail nothing." The transgression was so great that an angel's life would not pay the debt. Nothing but the death and intercession of God's Son would pay the debt and save lost man from hopeless sorrow and misery. (EW 126, 127)
Can anyone honestly consider this description and see that sin was something foreknown and inevitable? It just doesn't make any sense to look at it that way.
For example, if God knew sin was going to happen (no maybe, but certainly, and at the exact time that it did, and in the exact way) then what sense does it make for the angel to say it was a "struggle" for God. How could something God knew from eternity was going to happen, and knew from eternity what He was going to do about it, be a "struggle"?
There was risk involved when God created man, and there was risk involved when Christ came to save man. There was no inevitability involved in either case.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12177
02/05/05 01:26 AM
02/05/05 01:26 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Thank you Tom,
It is this risk that makes God great; because it is a question of faithfulness in love. This is greater than any knowledge ever could make anyone. The kind of knowledge that Mike has proposed takes away the glory of God and in its place puts a mechanical aspect.
He is faithful in love, and that is glorious.
Shalom
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12178
02/06/05 03:12 AM
02/06/05 03:12 AM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Daryl, you and I agree.
Tom and John, I do not agree with you.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12179
02/06/05 05:00 AM
02/06/05 05:00 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike, I don't think Daryl agrees with you. I think there are some things he agrees with and others he does not. For example, I doubt he agree with this: quote:
Giving Satan the credit for creating sin and death robs God of His power and authority and His sovereignty.
It's somewhat risky to speak for someone else. I
I do agree with John.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12180
02/06/05 04:35 PM
02/06/05 04:35 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Daryl, the title of this thread was created by Tom who firmly believes sin was not inevitable. He does not believe God foresaw the existence of sin. According to the view he favors, God knew sin was possible, but certainly not inevitable. You and I both agree sin was inevitable because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam.
Tom, again, just because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam, it does not mean they had no choice. It wasn't God's desire or intention that sin happen, but neither was it His desire not to create Lucifer or Adam, even though He knew they would sin. We cannot explain why God choose to create them in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12181
02/06/05 06:08 PM
02/06/05 06:08 PM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: Daryl, the title of this thread was created by Tom who firmly believes sin was not inevitable. He does not believe God foresaw the existence of sin.
Tom: Whoa! I never said God did not foresee the existence of sin. Inspiration is clear that He did.
Mike: According to the view he favors, God knew sin was possible, but certainly not inevitable. You and I both agree sin was inevitable because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam.
Tom: He foresaw the possibility of it, not the certainty of it. If it were certain, Adam and Lucifer could do nothing about it. That's simple logic. There's nothing a person can do to prevent something which is certain to happen from happening. Not even God can do that.
Mike: Tom, again, just because God foresaw the fall of Lucifer and Adam, it does not mean they had no choice.
Tom: Yes it does, if it was certain that the event which God foresaw must occur.
Mike: It wasn't God's desire or intention that sin happen, but neither was it His desire not to create Lucifer or Adam, even though He knew they would sin. We cannot explain why God choose to create them in spite of the fact He foresaw their fall.
Tom: You cannot explain something that is illogical. That's my point.
You also made no attempt at addressing my argument relating to Early Writings. What Ellen White wrote clearly portrays sin as a present problem at that time, not something that was foreordained or foreknew from all eternity.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12182
02/06/05 06:18 PM
02/06/05 06:18 PM
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God created Lucifier through whom sin eventually was formed by choice of Lucifier, not by God's choice.
God gave all His created intelligent beings the freedom of choice, or freewill.
Lucifer made his choice, and so did 1/3 of the other angels. Adam and Eve also made their own choice.
Don't forget though, that the other 2/3 of the angels also made a choice, a choice not to go the way of Lucifer and the other 1/3 of the angels.
The other worlds also chose not to go the way of Adam and Eve.
God did not intend that sin exist and I agree with that, however, sin does exist, and continues to exist today.
God didn't intend for sin to exist, but in order for sin not to exist, He didn't not create Lucifer.
Sin happened outside the will of God, but God also allowed it to happen, but by allowing it to happen, He didn't plan for it to happen.
By the fact that God wouldn't base His creation on what a created being would do or wouldn't do, sin eventually resulted. God, knowing, that it would happen, planned to meet it in such a way that sin would never happen again. That is why He didn't destroy Lucifer when sin became rooted in him. That is why He didn't destroy those 1/3 of the angels that chose to sin along with Lucifer. That is why God didn't destroy Adam and Eve when they also chose to sin.
With sin entering into God's creation, He had to expose it to all creation for what sin really was. To have destroyed the devil, before he even had a chance to deceive any other angel would have opened up questions in the minds of all the other created beings that would have contained the elements of sin. By destroying the devil, sin would have done its work of contamination in a different way. Sin would have arisen again, and again, and again. By letting sin run its course so that sin could be seen for what it is, God has ensured that sin will never raise its ugly head ever again.
Of course, God's justice, mercy, and grace revealed the sacrificial love of God when the Plan of Salvation was revealed in response to the choice made by Adam and Eve.
Sin was allowed to blossom and flourish so that the Great Controversy and the Plan of Salvation would clearly reveal to all created beings the ugliness of sin and the goodness of the law of God; the ugliness of sin in what the devil did to the innocent Lamb of God, and in the goodness of God in paying the penalty Himself in the person of Jesus Christ.
Was sin intended? No. It was never the plan of God that sin would happen.
Was sin inevitable? If God foresaw it, and I believe He did, then yes. God, then in His foreknowledge, in His wisdom, allowed it happen in such a way so that it will never happen again in a freewill environment.
I did this all off the top of my head, therefore, I hope I stated it as I intended to. What I said I said based on my own feeble knowledge and understanding of what I read and studied over the years in relation to this whole sin thing.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12183
02/07/05 02:13 AM
02/07/05 02:13 AM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
With sin entering into God's creation, He had to expose it to all creation for what sin really was. To have destroyed the devil, before he even had a chance to deceive any other angel would have opened up questions in the minds of all the other created beings that would have contained the elements of sin. By destroying the devil, sin would have done its work of contamination in a different way. Sin would have arisen again, and again, and again. By letting sin run its course so that sin could be seen for what it is, God has ensured that sin will never raise its ugly head ever again.
If we can ascertain the means and the cause why the unfallen beings would have fallen if God had done something; Can we not also ascertain why those that fell did fall because God did or did not do something?
If God's "forseeing" could prevent those who did not fall, but would have fallen, from falling, why could it also not prevent those which did fall from falling?
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