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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12164
01/30/05 06:56 AM
01/30/05 06:56 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Mike: Tom, the Bible says there was “war in heaven” and Satan and his followers were forcibly cast out of heaven. “Neither was their place found any more in heaven.” Tom: Early Writings and The Story of Redemption deal with this in great detail. Satan and his angels were not permitted to return to heaven because of the characters they had formed. Jesus wept for them. Jude says that the evil angels "left their habitation." Why did they leave? For the same reason Adam and Eve left God after they sinned. Keep in mind that force is not a principle of God's government: quote:
The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority.(DA 22)
Mike: When Adam and Eve sinned, they were forcibly “driven out” of the Garden, and a sword wielding angel was stationed at the gate to prevent them from ever entering again. Neither angels or man left voluntarily.
Tom: That's not what Jude says:
"And the angels which kept not their first estate, F1 but left their own habitation" (Jude 6)
Mike: They didn’t leave because they felt uncomfortable around God. The Bible is clear about what happened and why.
Tom: To sin whereever it is found, God's presence is a consuming fire. Of course they felt uncomfortable around God. There are so many statements to this effect, it is surprising you would contend this point. To name just one, consider the GC 541 statement mentioned in my previous post.
Mike: You suggested other titles for this thread, and I suggested one. I feel your suggestions assume too much, namely, that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin.
Tom: In what way does the question, "Did God intend that sin should exist?" assume that God did not know ahead of time that Satan and Adam would sin? IMO your assertion hear is absurd. Anyone could ask this question, regardless of their views regarding the nature of the future.
Mike: Our different views of God’s foreknowledge is going to prevent us from seeing eye to eye on this subject. I believe God foresaw the existence of sin, but you don’t believe He did. We’re gridlocked.
Tom: The issue, once again, is not God's foreknowledge but the nature of the future. I believe that God knows all things actual and potential. I'm sure you agree with me on this point. Thus we both believe God has perfect foreknowledge and that God is omniscient. I hope you understand this point. Once again, please understand that we do not disagree regarding God's foreknowledge, but regarding the nature of the future.
You believe the future is like a T.V. rerun. I believe the future is not 100% settled, and I provided several statements from the Spirit of Prophesy and many more from Scripture to demonstrate that my view of the future is in harmony with inspiration.
Mike: You seem to believe the Bible and the SOP explains everything there is to know about why Jesus had to die.
Tom: How could you possibly assert such a thing based on what I wrote? Especially after I went to careful pains to explain my position? Aargh! Please quite doing that! If you want to assert something I "seem to believe" please do what I requested, and quote something I actually wrote. You are doing a really poor job of characterizing my positions, which is disappointing given the amount of effort I put into explaining what it was.
Please reread what I wrote on this. I think I was very clear as to my position.
Mike: I disagree. “The plan of redemption is so far-reaching that philosophy cannot explain it. It will ever remain a mystery that the most profound reasoning cannot fathom. The science of salvation cannot be explained; but it can be known by experience.” DA 494. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Tom: Again, please re-read what I wrote in my previous post. We may indeed be grid-locked, but let's be grid-locked about something I actually believe.
Mike: Again, just because God foresaw the existence of sin, the fall of Satan and Adam, and made provisions for it in advance, it does not explain why they choose to sin. It isn’t a mystery to God, but He hasn’t chosen to reveal everything He knows about it. “There are those who, in their inquiries concerning the existence of sin, endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed…” GC 492. Again, we’re gridlocked.
Tom: I presented arguments based on several SOP statements and many more texts from Scripture, as well as an itemized list of reasons as to why the future is not fixed according to how the Scriptures presents God's dealings in history. You have responded to these statements with a quote regarding "those who endeavor to search into that which God has never revealed." Given that I quoted many texts of Scriptures, it is clear that I am dealing with things God HAS revealed.
You didn't deal with any of my arguments or any of the texts from Scripture or from the Spirit of Prophesy I cited. I invite you to do so.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12165
01/30/05 02:04 PM
01/30/05 02:04 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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quote:
Okay. Are we ready now to answer the question - Was sin possible before God created free moral agents?
Mike, that question has already been answered, in your own words:
quote:
God knows what sin is and, in theory, He can sin, but in reality He will never sin.
He will not do anything against righteousness. Not because He cannot, but because He will not. Why not? Because God will never choose to sin.
and if you check back you will see that I agreed. What you have not commented on is my response to you as to why he will not sin, namely "faithfulness".
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12166
02/01/05 02:16 PM
02/01/05 02:16 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Tom, whatever else we may disagree on, and everything else that I don't understand, here's the bottom line: Sin was inevitable. Why? Because God foresaw it. No, His foreknowledge does not rob us of our freedom to choose. Knowing our choices, and managing the consequences, does not mean we have no choice. It looks like we better give this topic a rest.
John, thank you for answering my question. I'm glad we agree sin was not possible before God created FMAs, and that it was because of God's faithfulness.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12167
02/02/05 03:27 AM
02/02/05 03:27 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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quote:
Tom, whatever else we may disagree on, and everything else that I don't understand, here's the bottom line: Sin was inevitable. Why? Because God foresaw it. No, His foreknowledge does not rob us of our freedom to choose. Knowing our choices, and managing the consequences, does not mean we have no choice. It looks like we better give this topic a rest.
This logic is backwards. Inspiration tells us that God was is no way responsible for sin. If sin was inevitable, then God was responsible for sin. Therefore any presuppositions which lead to this conclusion (assuming the logic is valid) must be false.
If you wish to give the topic a rest, you need not respond.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12168
02/01/05 11:49 PM
02/01/05 11:49 PM
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Let us try and see where we are really at with this topic.
The question: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
The answer: No.
Does anybody disagree with this answer?
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12169
02/02/05 04:39 AM
02/02/05 04:39 AM
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OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
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Good thinking Daryl! I second the no answer.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12170
02/02/05 01:37 PM
02/02/05 01:37 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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Answer: the question is misleading.
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12171
02/02/05 09:19 PM
02/02/05 09:19 PM
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Dedicated Member
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
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Mike, since sin was not possible before creation because of "faithfulness". Can we now state why sin would be inevitable at creation?
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12172
02/02/05 09:25 PM
02/02/05 09:25 PM
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First of all, Tom Ewall was the one who created this topic by asking this question.
Secondly, how is this question misleading that we have been discussing for six pages now?
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Re: Was it God's intention that sin exist?
#12173
02/03/05 02:32 PM
02/03/05 02:32 PM
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SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
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The question is misleading because the obvious answer (i.e., no) implies sin was not inevitable. Just because it wasn't God's desire for sin to exist doesn't mean it wasn't inevitable. The reason it was inevitable is because God foresaw its existence. He created FMAs in spite of the fact He knew in advance they would choose to sin and rebel. He could have chosen NOT to create those particular FMAs without violating free will. Just exactly why God chose to create the ones He knew would sin and rebel is a mystery.
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