Arnold, I like your illustration of the child offering his gift to his father. Is it perfect, no, but it is the gift of love trying to emulate the instructions of the father and it is accepted.

That is a very good illustration of our obedience -- that's why we need to walk with Christ in humble obedience and in faith that we are accepted in Him. When we start worrying about perfection in order to make ourselves acceptable, we only end up with our eyes upon self in utter discouragement.

When do you think this condition is reversed? That is, when is "righteousness and true holiness" no longer stained with sin?

The merits of justification never cease accommodating our pardoned sins. Justification is eternal. The reason Jesus dons His most Kingly robes is because everyone alive has made the final, irrevocable decision for or against the seal of God. The 144,000 are never going to sin again. Never. Sanctification is eternal.

There is another option, namely, by beholding Jesus we become like Jesus. As the seed sprouts and grows and produces mature fruit it is perfect at all stages. Unlike the imperfect gift of a child, the plant is absolutely perfect from seed to fruit. Perfection is inherent in the seed and is gradually revealed from seed to fruit.

The difference between seed and fruit is maturation not imperfection. While abiding in Jesus, while partaking of the divine nature, believers grow from "glory to glory", from "faith to faith", from "grace to grace" not from greater sins to lesser sins.

While believers are living in harmony with their conscience and convictions, the growth they experience as they mature in the fruits of Spirit is “an advance from one stage of perfection to another.” (ML 250) And this “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186) Ellen also wrote:

"God's ideal for His children is higher than the highest human thought can reach. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." This command is a promise. The plan of redemption contemplates our complete recovery from the power of Satan. Christ always separates the contrite soul from sin. He came to destroy the works of the devil, and He has made provision that the Holy Spirit shall be imparted to every repentant soul, to keep him from sinning. {DA 311.2}

No. Why do you ask? Are you assuming Satan's guilt implies we are guilty because we possess a nature that temnpts us from within?


Are they selfish? Also, what is an example of subsurface selfishness?


Does God count them guilty of sin because they possess fallen physical natures? Also, are restored holy spiritual natures available now? And, in what sense are they different than Jesus’?


Does this mean God does not count us guilty of sin because we possess fallen physical natures?


Mediation does not bridge unconfessed sins. Atonement accommodates sins confessed and pardoned. What is the origin and source of “our selfishness”? Are we required to regularly repent of it? Is it volitional sin? And, how and when is it purged?

PS – Do you go along with the people who argue sin is a state of being and a state of thinking, speaking, and doing, and that we can be free of the latter but not free of the former?

This is all so theological and totally out of the realm of actual living.

I know I am NOT perfect -- everything I do could be done better. Yes, I try to keep my house clean, but I could do better. Cleanliness is next to godliness, so I've already failed there to reach perfection. I do try to cook healthy meals, but I could do better. Doesn't EGW say a lot about poor cooking being a sin? Yes, I do take time for study and contemplation, but I could do better. Once in a while I do invite people home or visit them, but oh -- I should do so much more! (I used to do a lot more) Then there's all the church responsibilities -- at times I downright resent not even having Sabbaths to rest, especially when the kids act up and all the planned lesson gets lost in their hyperactivity. There is SO MUCH that I should do that I just don't have the energy to do. What about all those lonely people I should call, the sick I should visit, the hungry I should feed. But at the end of a stressful work day where I'm on my feet for over 8 hours, I just don't have the energy and just want peace and quiet. Oh, yes, if I just organized myself better I could do it, if I wasn't thinking about self, I could do it, Yes, if I just prayed harder I could do it, Yes, if I just somehow generated more love, or acquired more love, I could do it, OR SO I'M TOLD, but the bottom line, I'm just not able to meet the standard that is expected. And trying just causes burn out. And that's not even discussing the feelings of impatience that show on the face, the frustrated words that slip out at times.

Look at Jesus life! The love and ceaseless energy He put into meeting other people's needs -- ARE YOU DOING THAT?



Sin isn't just refraining from certain immoral acts, sin is failing to meet the standards of righteousness.

Like I said before if perfection is the key to acceptance there is no hope. Nothing I do is perfect -- nothing. Not even after years (in fact its getting worse as energy wanes with age)
To be told I must be perfect just ends in developing more frustration and MORE SIN.

It doesn't lead to focusing on Christ -- there are TOO MANY things that must be done in the attempt to reach perfection.

I need to leave this discussion --
and refind the rest in Christ.

Forget about perfection, and just walk with Him day by day in humble obedience.

You see, it's not all quite like that. It's actually quite simple.

We are saved by works. But there are two kinds of works. Before you start throwing me out of this forum, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater, be sure you understand the two. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Paul says we are "justified by faith without the deeds of the law." (Romans 3:28) "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16) He is speaking of one kind of works.


James says "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:21,24) This is another kind of works.

What is the difference in the two kinds? It is simple. We can work our own works (no salvation here), or we can work the works of Christ (His works have purchased our salvation).

How do we work Christ's works? John 15 is the best explanation of this. We stay connected to the Vine. If the branch produces fruit, where did the fruit come from? The fruit represents the works. The fruit does not come from the branch, however, because if the branch were disconnected from the Vine, it would not bear fruit. The fruit is a "gift" from the Vine, through its nourishing sap. The fruits of the spirit are listed in Galatians. These come to us through our connection to Christ, the Vine.

If we are connected, we WILL have fruit. If we have no fruit, we can certainly know that we are not connected. "By their fruits ye shall know them." We do have a work to do...stay connected. That is our work. We must resist the devil and submit to God. He will then work His works in us. He will change the desires of our hearts. He will make us into new creatures, and purge the dross away from our characters.

His works, in us, save us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

We walk with HIM -- abide in Him in humble obedience day by day, and stop trying to achieve some elusive perfection -- yes then we will have true fruit,

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

By beholding Jesus we become like Jesus. This is a way of life. It is actual living. It results in "righteousness and true holiness" - not in sin stained righteousness and pseudo holiness.


"Godliness with contentment is great gain." (1 Tim 6:6) I had no idea, Dedication, that you feel no matter what you do it comes woefully short of God's expectations. I can relate. I used to feel the same way, and it felt rotten. But then one day it dawned on me. Just because it could have been better it doesn't mean I'm sinning or incurring the frown of our Father. My motives are right, therefore, my thoughts, words, and deeds are "righteous, even as he is righteous".

Motive is everything. If the motive is right the thought, word, or deed is right. It doesn't matter if the fruit is immature. Right motives make it right. "You should not only have a knowledge of what is right, but should practice it from right motives, having an eye single to the glory of God. . . The righteousness of Christ consists in right actions and good works from pure, unselfish motives. {3T 528}

"They are made partakers of the divine nature, and grow more and more like their Saviour, advancing step by step in conformity to the will of God, till they reach perfection. {1SM 240.3} "Daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to reach perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives. {WM 315.2}

The Bible says I'm perfect at all stages of growth. The difference between me and Jesus is not sin but maturation, depth and degree of righteousness. Becoming more and more like Jesus is a progression from one stage of perfection to another. "It is the privilege of each to follow gladly after Christ, exclaiming at every step, 'Thy gentleness hath made me great" {1SM 242.2} "From glory to glory" not from gory to gory.


According to my calling and giftedness, yes. My motives are right, my conscience is clear, our Father smiles, nods His head, and proudly proclaims, That's my boy!


Motive determines whether our thoughts, words, and actions are right or wrong. Immature fruit is just as perfect as mature fruit. Perfection is inherent from seed to fruit, and is revealed more and more as we advance from one stage of perfection to another.


Please know your heavenly Father smiles upon you when you're motives are right. It doesn't matter to Him if your fruit is immature so long as you are growing and your motives are right. You and your words and works are perfect in His sight when you're motives are right.

"The truths of the word of God are to be brought into contact with the supposed little things of life. If rightly regarded they will brighten the common life, supplying motives for obedience and principles for the formation of a right character. {AH 189.2}

"The basis or cause of every right action existing and operating in the renewed heart secures obedience without external or selfish motives. The spirit of truth and a good conscience are sufficient to inspire and regulate the motives and conduct of those who learn of Christ and are like Him. . . In the renewed heart there will be a fixed principle to obey the will of God, because there is a love for what is just, and good, and holy. {2T 487, 488}