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Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121828
11/25/09 06:29 PM
11/25/09 06:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, I agree current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is not more likely than it was around 1888. If anything the conditions that resulted in Jesus not returning around 1888 have not improved since then. In fact, current conditions are such that Jesus' arrival may be even more unlikely to happen.

Something must change. We cannot continue down the wrong path and hope Jesus will return. "We are to seek for perfect order and perfect righteousness, after God's own similitude. On these grounds alone will our works bear the test of the judgment. {1SM 114.2} Ellen further describes the path we must take:

Quote:
Several have written to me, inquiring if the message of justification by faith is the third angel's message, and I have answered, "It is the third angel's message in verity."--1SM 372 (1890). {LDE 199.4}

The Lord in His great mercy sent a most precious message to His people through Elders [E.J.] Waggoner and [A. T.] Jones. This message was to bring more prominently before the world the uplifted Saviour, the sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. It presented justification through faith in the Surety; it invited the people to receive the righteousness of Christ, which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God. {LDE 200.1}

Many had lost sight of Jesus. They needed to have their eyes directed to His divine person, His merits, and His changeless love for the human family. All power is given into His hands, that He may dispense rich gifts unto men, imparting the priceless gift of His own righteousness to the helpless human agent. This is the message that God commanded to be given to the world. It is the third angel's message, which is to be proclaimed with a loud voice, and attended with the outpouring of His Spirit in a large measure.--TM 91, 92 (1895). {LDE 200.2}

The message of Christ's righteousness is to sound from one end of the earth to the other to prepare the way of the Lord. This is the glory of God, which closes the work of the third angel.--6T 19 (1900). {LDE 200.3}

The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them.--COL 415, 416 (1900). {LDE 200.4}

In the following passages Ellen elaborates on the path Jones and Waggoner described:

Quote:
Faith and works go together, believing and doing are blended. The Lord requires no less of the soul now, than He required of Adam in Paradise before he fell-- perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness. The requirement of God under the covenant of grace is just as broad as the requirement He made in Paradise--harmony with His law, which is holy, and just, and good. . . God requires of His child perfect obedience. {1SM 373.1}

God requires of all His subjects obedience, entire obedience to all His commandments. He demands now as ever perfect righteousness as the only title to heaven. Christ is our hope and our refuge. His righteousness is imputed only to the obedient. Let us accept it through faith, that the Father shall find in us no sin. But those who have trampled on the holy law will have no right to claim that righteousness. O that we might view the immensity of the plan of salvation as obedient children to all God's requirements, believing that we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our atoning sacrifice (RH Sept. 21, 1886)! {6BC 1072.8}

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

The conditions of eternal life, under grace, are just what they were in Eden--perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law. The standard of character presented in the Old Testament is the same that is presented in the New Testament. This standard is not one to which we cannot attain. In every command or injunction that God gives there is a promise, the most positive, underlying the command. God has made provision that we may become like unto Him, and He will accomplish this for all who do not interpose a perverse will and thus frustrate His grace. {MB 76.2}

While the law is holy, the Jews could not attain righteousness by their own efforts to keep the law. The disciples of Christ must obtain righteousness of a different character from that of the Pharisees, if they would enter the kingdom of heaven. God offered them, in His Son, the perfect righteousness of the law. If they would open their hearts fully to receive Christ, then the very life of God, His love, would dwell in them, transforming them into His own likeness; and thus through God's free gift they would possess the righteousness which the law requires. But the Pharisees rejected Christ; "being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Romans 10:3), they would not submit themselves unto the righteousness of God. {MB 54.2}

The above description of the path we must take is under attack. Some say "perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law . . . perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness" is impossible while in possession of fallen flesh. Is it true?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121836
11/26/09 12:01 AM
11/26/09 12:01 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
The above description of the path we must take is under attack. Some say "perfect righteousness, harmony with God, perfect conformity to the principles of His law . . . perfect obedience, unblemished righteousness" is impossible while in possession of fallen flesh. Is it true?


You're asking if it's true that some say these things? If so, yes, it's true.

I agree with you that conditions do not appear to be as favorable as in 1888, in terms of being close to Christ's coming. However, I say that cautiously, as before 1888, nobody knew anything about Jones and Waggoner, not even Ellen White. So God had these messengers ready to go, to give a message which would have prepared the way for Christ's coming in a very short amount of time. Yet before the 1888 General Conference session, nobody, not even Ellen White, had any inkling that this was about to happen.

So it's possible that God may have something in store of which we have no inkling now. I think what you said is most likely the case, but I think it's good to be open to the possibility that things might be different than what we think.

A significant thing about 1888 is that God sent a message with the purpose of preparing a people for the coming of Christ. Of course, this people was not only SDA's. The idea was that the leadership would take the message from the 1888 GC session, and share it with those under their leadership, pastors, who would have taken it to their membership, who would have shared it with their family and friends, and in a short amount of time the world would have been prepared for Christ's coming.

Now I have no idea if God will follow a similar pattern, or if He has some other completely different idea in mind (this seems more likely to me; something that we can't anticipate), but I'm confident that regardless of the methodology used to communicate the message, the key thing will be the message. Also, I don't see how it's possible for a message to be propagated that prepares the way for the coming of Christ as long as key principles from the message which God sent in 1888 are resisted and/or neglected.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121845
11/26/09 04:38 PM
11/26/09 04:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
You're asking if it's true that some say these things? If so, yes, it's true.

I'm glad we agree that some people say these things. And, from the looks of things, we also agree their conclusions are incorrect.

Quote:
Also, I don't see how it's possible for a message to be propagated that prepares the way for the coming of Christ as long as key principles from the message which God sent in 1888 are resisted and/or neglected.

What are the "key principles"? Are any of them reflected in the passages I quoted above? And, are any of the key principles advocated by the SDA church? Also, which ones aren't?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121890
11/29/09 01:03 AM
11/29/09 01:03 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Tom, did J&W say anything not covered in Steps to Christ?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121900
11/29/09 05:52 AM
11/29/09 05:52 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
T:Also, I don't see how it's possible for a message to be propagated that prepares the way for the coming of Christ as long as key principles from the message which God sent in 1888 are resisted and/or neglected.

MM:What are the "key principles"? Are any of them reflected in the passages I quoted above? And, are any of the key principles advocated by the SDA church? Also, which ones aren't?


This is a pretty good introduction: http://www.gospel-herald.com/

The "Ten Truths" discusses key principles.

Of course, the best way would be to read their writings yourself. I'd suggest "Christ and His Righteousness" by Waggoner, and "The Consecrated Way to Perfection" by Jones. I'm quite sure you'd like the Jones book quite a lot.

Regarding if there are things Jones and Waggoner wrote which aren't in "Steps to Christ," of course! For one thing, how could there not be? They wrote thousands of pages, and Steps to Christ is a small book, written by a different author. Secondly, if Steps to Christ had everything we needed to know, Ellen White would have said to just read that. She never included herself with Jones and Waggoner in terms of the things she wrote regarding their brings a message from God for the purpose of preparing a people to stand in the Day of God. Indeed, she said that God gave different work for different ones, and that they had a gift which God had not given her. She said Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith better than she. She said she would be as a little child to receive all the light which God was sending.

In studying the 1890's, I'm amazed at all the light God was sending our way. I believe this is because God was preparing the way for Christ to come. I think we should take advantage of all the light God has sent, as best we can.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121905
11/29/09 03:16 PM
11/29/09 03:16 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Here are the ten gospel truths:

Quote:
Gospel Truth #1
Christ has already accomplished something for every human being. He died the second death for "every man," and thus elected "all men" to be saved. In that sense, it is true that "He saved the world." Appreciating what Christ accomplished by His sacrifice, lukewarm Laodiceans will learn the meaning of faith, and how to glory in the cross.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #2
By His uplifted cross and on-going priestly ministry, Christ is drawing "all men" to repentance. His gracious love is so strong and persistent that the sinner must resist it in order to be lost.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #3
It follows that it is actually easy to be saved and hard to be lost if one understands and believes how good the Good News is. The only difficult thing is learning how to believe the gospel. Jesus taught this truth.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #4
Christ is a Good Shepherd who is seeking His lost sheep even though we have not sought Him. A misunderstanding of God's character causes us to think He is trying to hide from us. There is no parable of a lost sheep that must seek and find its Shepherd.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #5
In seeking us, Christ came all the way to where we are, taking upon Himself "the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Thus He is a Savior "nigh at hand, not afar off." He "is the Savior of all men," even "the chief of sinners." But sinners have the freedom to refuse Him and reject Him.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #6
The new covenant is God's one-way promise to write His law in our hearts, and to give us everlasting salvation as a free gift "in Christ." The old covenant is the vain promise of the people to obey, and "gives birth to bondage." The spiritual failures of many sincere people are the result of being taught old covenant ideas, especially in childhood and youth. The new covenant truth was an essential element of the 1888 message, and even today lifts a load of doubt and despair from many heavy hearts.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #7
Our Savior "condemned sin in the flesh," conquering the problem for the human race. He forever outlawed sin in the vast universe of God by defeating it in its last lair—our fallen, sinful human flesh. Because of Him, there is now no reason for any human being to go on living under the frightful "dominion" of sin. Sinful addictions lose their grip if one has "the faith of Jesus."

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #8
A higher motivation becomes realized in the close of time than has prevailed in the church in past ages—a concern for Christ that He receive His reward and find His "rest" in the final eradication of sin. All egocentric motivation based merely on fear of hell or hope of reward is less effective. The higher motivation is symbolized in the climax of Scripture—the Bride of Christ making herself "ready."

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #9
The Bible so clearly teaches that righteousness is by faith. Therefore the only element that God's people need in order to prepare for the second coming of Christ is genuine faith. The message the world needs to hear is the truth of righteousness by faith in the light of the cleansing of the sanctuary—"the third angel's message in verity." Faith is understood in its true biblical sense—a heart appreciation of the agape of Christ.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Gospel Truth #10
The 1888 message is especially "precious" because it joins together the true biblical idea of justification by faith with the unique idea of the cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary. This is a Bible truth that the world is waiting to discover. It forms the essential element of truth that will yet lighten the earth with the glory of a final, fully developed presentation of "the everlasting gospel" of Revelation 14 and 18.

[The Bible Teaching] [A.T. Jones]
[E.J. Waggoner] [E.G. White]

Which of these are rejected in the 28 Beliefs? Which of these are absent in the SOP?

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121918
11/30/09 12:24 AM
11/30/09 12:24 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Look for yourself!

Regarding the SOP, she said that Waggoner could teach righteousness by faith better than she could, so whether the concepts are there or not may not be so important.

Here's another one to look at:

http://www.gospel-herald.com/wieland/1888re_ex/rx_appendix_b.htm


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121925
11/30/09 03:10 PM
11/30/09 03:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Okay. I looked for myself. And, yes, they are all there. Not one is missing. Everything J&W wrote, which received the stamp of God's approval, is accurately reflected in the SDA's believe book. Also, all ten gospel truths include links to the SOP in support of them. The link you posted contains the following:

Quote:
22. The second coming is impossible unless Christ ceases to be our Substitute.

In one sense Jesus' substitution is eternal. We will never stop being redeemed. Our redemption is an eternal reality. We are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our past sins are forever pardoned. His righteousness forever stands in the place of our past sins. It prevents the existence of a big gap in our life when our sins are forever blotted out.

Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Mountain Man] #121953
12/01/09 02:26 PM
12/01/09 02:26 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Here's 22:

Quote:
22. Continued sinning is “condemned in the flesh” through Christ. Sin has become unnecessary in light of His gospel. Righteousness is by faith because faith works by love. Our difficulty is either ignorance of the gospel or unbelief. The second coming is impossible unless Christ ceases to be our Substitute.


I don't think it's a good idea to just take that last sentence without the context. Personally, I wouldn't have put it the way it was put here, as I think this is too liable to be misunderstood. I'd say, instead, that the Second Coming is impossible unless Christ ceases His priestly work in the Most Holy Place -- something like that.

You wrote:

Quote:
And, yes, they are all there. Not one is missing. Everything J&W wrote, which received the stamp of God's approval, is accurately reflected in the SDA's believe book. Also, all ten gospel truths include links to the SOP in support of them. The link you posted contains the following:


Here's #6:

Quote:
The new covenant is God's one-way promise to write His law in our hearts, and to give us everlasting salvation as a free gift "in Christ." The old covenant is the vain promise of the people to obey, and "gives birth to bondage." The spiritual failures of many sincere people are the result of being taught old covenant ideas, especially in childhood and youth. The new covenant truth was an essential element of the 1888 message, and even today lifts a load of doubt and despair from many heavy hearts.


Where do you see this in the "SDA's believe" book?

What about this one? (#5)

Quote:
In seeking us, Christ came all the way to where we are, taking upon Himself "the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Thus He is a Savior "nigh at hand, not afar off." He "is the Savior of all men," even "the chief of sinners." But sinners have the freedom to refuse Him and reject Him.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Do current conditions suggest Jesus' arrival is more likely than before? [Re: Tom] #121977
12/01/09 08:29 PM
12/01/09 08:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: "The second coming is impossible unless Christ ceases to be our Substitute."

T: I'd say, instead, that the Second Coming is impossible unless Christ ceases His priestly work in the Most Holy Place -- something like that.

Why do you think the two ideas are synonymous?

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