James:

Tom wrote.

This is exactly the problem I see with the idea that sin was inevitable. If sin was inevitable, then there must be a reason for God to have created it. Any such reason makes God into a monster.

Unquote.

Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?

Tom: What you wrote isn't what I wrote at all, even if one holds to your presupositions.

James: I think differently, God knew sin would arise and ad prepared the way out even before he began with creation of the 1st thing.

Tom: If God knew sin would arise, why not simply create beings He knew wouldn't sin?

James: But continuing with his plan of creation doesn’t make him a monster, if he did create angels and men without the power of free will choice, he become a monster.

Tom: Freedom of choice in no way implies that sin should occur. EGW tells us that God created "millions of worlds". This means that of the free will creatures who have been created, only something like 0.00001% of all created beings have sinned, and this is even given that sin had already occured. Looking at things from the standpoint of sin not existing, it should be evident that sin is much *not* in the norm for beings with free will.

Just to be clear, what would make God into a "monster" would be His creating a universe in which sin was inevitable for the purpose of making Himself look good.

James: Thus, I think, why did God continue with creating even though he knew sin would arise, making Christ must come as a man in fallen nature to safe men by his painful death on the cross? Because he is going to prove him self and Christ as an unselfish loving God who is willing to take the risk of creating. Maybe this is a test for him self and Christ, maybe because Christ was his first creation, a duplicate of his own, and are going to test him. Who knows!

Tom: With all due respect, this doesn't make any sense. God could have proved Himself and Christ unselfish by simply not creating sin.

If you pounded your child to the point of death, and then sacrificed your bank account to save its life, would that prove you "unselfish"? God is only proven unselfish if sin was not something He planned.

Note the following from the Spirit of Prophesy:

quote:

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It is impossible to explain the origin of sin so as to give a reason for its existence. Yet enough may be understood concerning both the origin and the final disposition of sin to make fully manifest the justice and benevolence of God in all His dealings with evil. Nothing is more plainly taught in Scripture than that God was in no wise responsible for the entrance of sin; that there was no arbitrary withdrawal of divine grace, no deficiency in the divine government, that gave occasion for the uprising of rebellion. Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. (GC 492, 492)

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Tom wrote:

This is the opposite of what EGW states in GC. She writes that there was *no* reason for sin, and that God was in no wise responsible for its entrance. If God was not responsible for sin's existence, then He certainly didn't plan for it to happen. Similarly I see know way in which sin can be viewed as inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.

Unquote.

Does EGW knows the reason why did God create angles and then men? Are there any quotes of her teaching that gives us a picture of WHY did God create them?

Anyway I agree with her that there was no reason for sin to emerge in this universe, but it happened because those who sinned were created with a free will choice. It is true that God was not responsible for it entrance, but he is responsible for what he created, those who sinned. And he is willing to take the risk of this responsibility, even it cost Christ life. God was not responsible for sin’s existence, he certainly didn’t plan it to happen, but he knew it will happened. Therefore, it is inevitable without making God responsible for its coming into being.

In His love

James S

Tom: With all due respect, this doesn't make any sense. God could have proved Himself and Christ unselfish by simply not creating sin.
If you pounded your child to the point of death, and then sacrificed your bank account to save its life, would that prove you "unselfish"? God is only proven unselfish if sin was not something He planned.
Unquote.

I didn’t say that God create sin or planned it.

What he did create is evil, and to become evil some one must find out it first then exercising it. That’s why Adam and Eve were created without this knowledge, but if they eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, they would come to know what is good and what is evil, only by this act, sin would emerge. Why did God create the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil and gives A & E a choice? Because they have a free will choice and Satan is roaming around in this world (Eden) with the idea in his mind to tempt them. This situation makes sin inevitable in this world.

Tom: If God knew sin would arise, why not simply create beings He knew wouldn't sin?

Is this a good thing for him? Why would he choose to create being that he knew wouldn’t sin? Is he afraid of taking the risk and responsibility of creating, when sin is inevitable?

Tom: Just to be clear, what would make God into a "monster" would be His creating a universe in which sin was inevitable for the purpose of making Himself look good.

When God created Adam and Eve sin is inevitable in this world because there is Satan.

When God created Lucifer and all of the angles, sin is also inevitable because they were created without the knowledge of good and evil. They must find out of and for themselves, what is good and what is evil. Only by this, they would come to a complete understanding of the unselfish love of God – his agape love. He did create them in perfection, love, holiness, intelligent with freedom of choice, but they didn’t know what is good and what is evil, they didn’t know what love is. They just do by default the deeds of love, because they were created with that. But the way to find out what is love and what is evil is open, to find out what is good and what is evil is open before them, God would not hinder them, it might happen to any one of his creation, unless he created them without the freedom of choice.

So, the 1st created being who exercised his mind to find out what is good and what is evil is Lucifer. The capability to do it is created in him and God allows that to happen, for only through this, they might know exactly what is love, which might say, who is God, their Creator.

Once Lucifer knew what love is and what evil is, he is being driven to evilness by his own desire that want more than what is given to him. He become selfish, choosing to fulfill his own desire. He shared this knowledge to other angels, and some of them follow his step, becoming selfish, but others remain in their choice to worship God alone.

I really believe that sin is inevitable because of those circumstances.

In His love

James S

James: Why did you think, that God by creating intelligent living being with the free will to choose, knowing some of them would chose sin instead of righteousness, is making him a monster?

John: If he could know that some of them will sin, then they did not have a choice, and if they did not have a choice then they could not commit sin. For sin to be possible, it has to totally the domain of him who does it. The same goes for righteousness.

The way you are speaking James, is, in someway using possibility, as the odds of probability, as certainty. The fact that there is possibility does in no way mean that it has to be. The fact that one is ready for such an occasion does not mean that the occasion is determined.

Evil is the absence of good. The concept of “good” was obviously never created (because God IS good), otherwise, God would have been at some point, not good. So, the concept of evil, being the opposite of good (or the absence thereof), must also have never been created as such, but just there. When Satan chose his own way—without God—he was without good (AKA evil). Sin is essentially the practice of evil, or better yet, choosing evil. God did not design that sin should exist, but giving man choice certainly made it possible, albeit not inevitable.

Jeff

James, if God created a universe where sin was inevitable, then He planned for it to happen. Otherwise language doesn't mean anything.

Jeff.

I rather think, that good is God creation, because what he had created is good things, as he is good. Evil is the absence of good, as darkness is the absence of light, so by creating good”, evil is created.

Isaiah 46:7
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.

This one is very clear.

In His love

James S

Tom.

By creating intelligent living being in his image and likeness with a free will to choose but without the knowledge of good and evil, in fact God is creating a circumstances where sin is inevitable, predictable, expected, unavoidable, whatever you may say as according to the meaning of it word, but one thing I am sure, he didn’t want it to happen, only he knew it would happen.

Is inevitable = planned ??

Why does God create Adam and Eve in a world where Satan roams and ruled? Why does he create Adam and Eve to face Satan’s temptation, knowing they would surely fall to his deception? I think, because he planned it to happen, as a means to execute his judgment in annihilating sin and sinners forever, by executing the death upon sinners. So, the creating of Adam and Eve in this world where Satan ruled, is his way out to expel sin forever from his would be kingdom. They were created as a means to abolish sin forever by executing the death, which is his creation upon sinners (men).

In His love

James S

John wrote:

It is totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what love is. To this Christ attests.
It is also totally unnecessary to sin in order to know what good and evil is. To this heaven attests.

Unquote.

I agree, but heaven attest when sin is chosen after knowing what is good and what is evil.

In His love

James S