Paul is here comparing his righteousness before and after his conversion. He is not saying the righteousness he experienced before his conversion is no different than the righteousness he experienced afterward.


Why, then, do you go on to say the righteous results of humanity and divinity combined is corrupt and stained with sin?

If he is looking to his own "perfection' it would be his own righteousness. But he isn't looking to his own 'perfection' - he acknowledges that he hasn't reached perfection yet.

Phil. 3:12 "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus."






Because it is still coming through the corrupt channels --

I disagree. Nothing Adam did was imperfect.
The condition of eternal life is perfect obedience to the law - perfect righteousness. If what Adam did was imperfect, he could never have obtained eternal life.
Was Jesus' righteousness also imperfect at some point in His life?


I've already quoted 1 John 1:8 in the other thread. About it, Ellen White says,

There is no one, however earnestly he may be striving to do his best, who can say, "I have no sin." He who would say this would be under a dangerous deception. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). {UL 53.4}

The only thing that could possibly make our "immature" righteousness, holy and perfect is if we accept the Righteousness of Christ in our place. We can never look to our own righteousness for salvation, no matter how good the motives .

It is His righteousness that makes our imperfect work complete and acceptable.
It is NOT perfect and acceptable otherwise.




Without Christ's righteousness our best, even if we think we are doing it in Christ's name, is -- nothing.

Are you using the word "imperfect" in the same sense I am, namely, "immature"? And, do you agree with me that the difference between seed and fruit is depth and degree of righteousness and not depth and degree of sin?


"I have no sin" is referring to past sins. "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." (v. 10) John is not talking about an innate, inherent state of unpardonable sin that corrupts and stains the righteous results of humanity and divinity combined.

Do you think this is what I'm laboring so earnestly to prove?


You seem to be saying that the "mature" and "immature" fruits of the Spirit are, no matter what, sinful and unacceptable to God, and that the righteousness of Jesus somehow makes sin acceptable to God. Have I misunderstood your point?

Mike, I'm using the word "imperfect" in the sense of "not perfect." Adam was perfect, although he could grow. This is different from us. We are not yet perfect, but are striving to reach perfection. Or are we, in your opinion, perfect in the same sense Adam was?

Through the knowledge of the truth as it is in Jesus, Christians are to grow in grace, constantly drawing nearer perfection of character.{UL 177.5}


Sure, past sins - those of five minutes ago.

"If we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." ... "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." In this world we are exposed to the temptations of the enemy, and because we do not depend on God as we should, we are continually sinning. There are those who, when they make mistakes, stand out in stubbornness, saying that they have not sinned, and refusing to confess. Those who say, "I never confess," will never see the kingdom of heaven unless they do confess. Read the prayer of confession that Daniel offered. He was called a man greatly beloved by God, and yet he confessed that he as well as the people had sinned. {RH, July 13, 1905 par. 7-10}

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness, look into the mirror of God's law, which discovers to us the defects of our character. Those who see the far-reaching claims of the law of God, those who realize that it is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, will not presume to make the boast of sinlessness, and venture to declare, "I am perfect, I am holy." "If we," John says, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." {ST, May 23, 1895 par. 10}

Yes, born-again, converted believers are perfect in the same sense A&E were perfect (not physically, of course). Christians who are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature and are living in harmony with "all things whatsoever [Jesus] commanded" are perfect. In Christ, as they grow daily in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit, they are "perfecting holiness", advancing "from one stage of perfection to another."

"As the sinner, drawn by the power of Christ, approaches the uplifted cross, and prostrates himself before it, there is a new creation. A new heart is given him. He becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus. Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require. (COL 162) Nevertheless, eternity isn’t long enough to exhaust our ability to become more and more perfect, more and more mature in the fruits of the Spirit, more and more like Jesus. This is the meaning of “constantly drawing nearer perfection of character.”

This “work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity.” (HP 186) “Even the most perfect Christian may increase continually in the knowledge and love of God. (ML 249) “And in heaven we are continually to improve. (COL 332) “The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.” Through obedience comes sanctification of body, soul, and spirit. This sanctification is a progressive work, and an advance from one stage of perfection to another. (ML 250)


I’m glad we agree it refers to past sins and not to an innate, inherent state of unpardonable sin that corrupts and stains the righteous results of humanity and divinity combined. Having “sin” in the sense John talked about refers to our past sins.

Converted Christians (i.e. believers who are living in harmony with everything Jesus commanded) are perfectly sinless while they are between sins (i.e. not currently committing a sin), while they are abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature, while they are walking in the Spirit and mind of the new man, while they are growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, while they are perfecting holiness in the fear of God. “Holiness finds that it has nothing more to require.”

"Those whom heaven recognizes as holy ones are the last to parade their own goodness. (FLB 111)

This obviously includes the fact that Christ's character stands in place of the sinner's character.


Mike, my character isn't yet perfect; I'm still seeking for perfection of character.

True sanctification is carried into all the business of life. Pure thoughts, noble aspirations, clear perceptions of truth, elevated purposes of action, yearnings to attain to perfection, will be the experience of every real Christian. These have fellowship with the Father and with the Son. They are constantly increasing in the knowledge of God. They grow in reverence and trust and love; but while they are coming nearer and nearer to perfection of character, they will feel more and more deeply their unlikeness to Christ, and have greater distrust of themselves and greater dependence upon God. As these are growing up to the full stature of men and women in Christ Jesus, they will be sought by others, and will be a help and blessing to all with whom they associate. {RH, September 8, 1885 par. 16}


So they are part of the time perfectly sinless, and part of the time completely sinful?

Another text pertinent to this discussion:

Before the believer is held out the wonderful possibility of being like Christ, obedient to all the principles of the law. But of himself man is utterly unable to reach this condition. The holiness that God's word declares he must have before he can be saved is the result of the working of divine grace as he bows in submission to the discipline and restraining influences of the Spirit of truth. Man's obedience can be made perfect only by the incense of Christ's righteousness, which fills with divine fragrance every act of obedience. The part of the Christian is to persevere in overcoming every fault. Constantly he is to pray to the Saviour to heal the disorders of his sin-sick soul. He has not the wisdom or the strength to overcome; these belong to the Lord, and He bestows them on those who in humiliation and contrition seek Him for help. {AA 532.1}